theme about it and finds that there are no like you know in the old days where you had a Photoshop to WordPress kind of. Yeah, yeah. He kind of had hope that there is a from figma to WordPress kind of thing and there is but you need to be very deliberate on how you set up Figma exactly to make this work. So.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> God, I was just thinking about all that. That&#8217;s so interesting. Yeah. You have to have they call it auto layout and of course I don&#8217;t, and I&#8217;m not going to redo all my stuff in Figma just to pray that whatever plugin I use will work. But that&#8217;s what they recommend the so. Oh well it wasn&#8217;t what I had planned. I wasn&#8217;t going to do an automated thing but. But now this kind of validates a reason why I can&#8217;t. It&#8217;s not quite there yet. Yeah, there are curious things in Figma and there are amazing things in Figma.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>So it&#8217;s like any new tool. Yeah, yeah. It has your tradeoffs and you need to kind of unlearn a lot of things before you can learn. Yeah. So the VIP theme builders or designers, they actually have a process where they go from Figma to theme JSON because they&#8217;ll have websites where they like you do. There&#8217;s a component that&#8217;s not WordPress and there&#8217;s a component that&#8217;s WordPress, or they have customers that have multiple different brandings for different things but they&#8217;re also, they&#8217;re all in Figma but then you can do themes and then that theme, you can use a plugin that you can then export your design decisions on the, on fonts and on colors and other things to migrate to theme JSON and then immediately kind of start up a block theme. I&#8217;m going to find that, dear listeners, I&#8217;m also going to find the link for you, not only for Anne. Thank you. We had David Bowman on the live Q and A maybe two years ago where he kind of demonstrated that all. So we will share those in the show notes and kind of see how that, I don&#8217;t know how that kind of works with you and how you approach figma, but it might be a good way to see if that works for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> That would be fascinating as well. I mean, I am using variables for some of my styles. I&#8217;m limiting it because again, of the learning curve. But I&#8217;ve got so far the color palette and very basic typography assigned to, you know, text in the six head levels to match up with a bootstrap scenario. And I&#8217;m thinking ahead even beyond that. Well, how will I translate that into a WordPress theme? So it&#8217;s. I like the complication. I don&#8217;t mind it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, yeah, no, the complexity is really intriguing because all of a sudden you kind of have these, all these pieces that fit together very well and you feel like, oh, this is genius.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, yeah, I actually, I wish I could remember the guy&#8217;s name, but I saw, I watched a YouTube video. Maybe I&#8217;ll find it and I&#8217;ll send you a note about it. But he explained the Figma variables really well, and he has maybe an hour and a half tutorial that I&#8217;ve yet to just scratch the surface.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, I know that Justin Tadlock, who is our theme guru, I would call him, he is working on a design system where he combines the color palette and the fonts with semantic kind of. So he&#8217;s not saying, okay, this is the main color, this is the background color, foreground color. But he&#8217;s saying, okay, this is a text color and has a separate design system that&#8217;s built into theme that he builds into theme JSON. So he can actually switch out a theme if the theme actually follows the same standards in there. He just can change colors and then the theme looks totally different.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Exactly. That&#8217;s kind of the idea behind the variables.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Definitely try to be semantic.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Michelle Hunt did a good funnel from Atomic Design to the Design system at WordCamp US and the video is online. And she also had a similar custom color setting design system in Theme JSON actually built into. Yeah, so I&#8217;m, of course I&#8217;m going to share all that, but with you and our listeners.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah. We can&#8217;t anticipate everything that comes up in these conversations, can we? No, we don&#8217;t have all the links right here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. But at least I know where I can look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I&#8217;m writing a blog post and I&#8217;m still a little bit stuck in that. But on how to use Playground to build a theme demo where you can have content, like to showcase your theme and then create a Playground blueprint to share with your clients or your customers so they can test WordPress with the theme and some content in there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>So great idea.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>So they know how the patterns look or the color scheme or how the front page can look. And because sometimes you have this problem that you have a theme and you see that there was a front page, but when you install the theme, it doesn&#8217;t look like that. Yeah, so, yeah, so that&#8217;s kind of part where theme builders or even agencies can really make some great showcase for their product. And I&#8217;m using Playground, but there is actually importer. So you can put all the content into your local site and then export it and then import it into Playground with the blueprint. Kind of have the XML file on GitHub and it kind of puts it in and you can do all the settings here. What&#8217;s the front page like? A blog post or a block theme? Or is it a page? Or is it. Which one is the news page then? And so you can build that all out. And now I&#8217;m kind of. The missing piece is still navigation. So the navigation, if you just build the pages, it automatically builds the page layout or the page list layout. But if you do a custom navigation work, it doesn&#8217;t get imported yet because somehow the parser doesn&#8217;t know that those links need to be transferred to the new site. So it didn&#8217;t work. Right. But I&#8217;m working on it and I know that the Playground people are really busy on doing stuff, doing this and fixing things. So that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m working on. And I&#8217;m.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>So it sounds like you&#8217;re using it also as a prototyping tool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> You could, you could. Yeah, yeah, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Is it like the concept, like a live link that you can share with a client and they can view it? Yeah, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, yeah. You could also do the prototype thing with. Well, you can share. You can. Yeah, you can share it with a client and every client who kept the link gets the same site. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>So is it stored in GitHub?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>No, it&#8217;s stored in memory on browser. On the browser, it&#8217;s Playground is a tool that runs WordPress. In the browser. You don&#8217;t need a server, you don&#8217;t need a database. You just need the playground.WordPress.net and then you have a WordPress site. And then with blueprints that are configuration files in JSON written in JSON, you can say, okay, which plugin do I want to install? Which. What&#8217;s the landing page? Which theme do I want to have in there? And do I want to have additional content in there? Yeah. So you can use it to showcase your plugin or your theme. And we use it for. For all kinds of different things as well. And on the team, we use it to test PRs from a good look and track that are not merged yet, that are not yet in a. In a version of that. So you can just kind of isolate the whole thing and just test this particular thing. That&#8217;s really cool. And I&#8217;m going to have a talk at a WordCamp about using Playground, GitHub and the great block theme. Okay. To change themes without touching code. So making changes to the themes through the editor. So if you need a new template or need to change a template, change or add colors and all this kind of things, but then at the end you export it to GitHub and it creates the PR that then one of your developer is going to merge with the theme where all the other developing things are happening.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em></p>\n\n\n\n<p>That sounds really cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Well, clearly I haven&#8217;t used Blueprint very much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Or Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Or Playground. Sorry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, but I get what you said before. Yeah. I like the complexity. So. Okay, let&#8217;s see how complicated and easy we can make it. Yeah. Well, I think we could now head into Gutenberg 21.6. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">WordPress 6.9</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>So WordPress 6.9 is coming. Let&#8217;s talk a little bit about WordPress 6.9. We will have other shows about that, of course, but just to get the timing right, we are about four weeks away from Beta 1, and Beta 1 is pretty much feature freeze, and it will all have in there 15 Gutenberg releases from 20.5 when WordPress 6.8 came out, 20.4 was the last one. So 20.5 until 21.9, it&#8217;s pretty much 15. But there was a period of Gutenberg releases for about four, four months when not a whole lot of features came in. But that is going to be offset that in the last two or three releases. There will be a ton of things in there. So we will change our cadence from having two Gutenberg plugins in a show to one and do another. I hope we can go back to every other week instead of every month recording. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Gutenberg 21.6</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>What we are talking about today is about Gutenberg 21.6 before I go in there. So release is going to be December 2nd, so everything you need and beta one is October 21st and in between are release candidates and release candidate one, I think is November 2nd or something like that. So by that time we hopefully have all the developer notes in there and Source of Truth will come out there at the same time or a week later. So just so you can prepare a plan or not. I&#8217;m a planning person, so I always need to know the dates. I always have. Most of the time I have a plan. So when something changes, I know what to change. Yeah. So. Well, let&#8217;s head into the Gutenberg 21.6. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Enhancements</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>It has a few enhancements and we start with the Data Views enhancement. And one of them is. Seems to be a minor thing, but there is a card layout in the components for the Data Forms where you can support combined fields and show the description in there. And that&#8217;s fairly new. So there&#8217;s also a storybook documentation out for those plugin developers who all kind of want to try out the new Data Views and the Data Forms. Data form is really where people then can enter stuff, filtering and all that. That&#8217;s all in Data Forms. And then there&#8217;s also in the Data Views we have the grid layout is now a little bit more flexible. You can have it without a title and then you have the actions are available on Hover, which is quite nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> But yeah, I like that. That&#8217;s a wonderful enhancement. And of course it got me into another path of both grids and thinking about using the grid layout for the post template. So I started to play around with that. Got lost in that for about an hour. So far I don&#8217;t really see an advantage for using the grid over the default grouping with columns, but I&#8217;ll play around with it a bit more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, there is actually a more interactive way of using the grid layout in the Gutenberg experiments. So that might be. So when you use the Gutenberg plugin, there&#8217;s one menu item under Gutenberg that says Experiments, and there are probably 10 different experiments, amongst them the new blocks that are in there, but they will come out of experiments hopefully soon. There&#8217;s also the data view usage for posts. Because right now it&#8217;s only a site editor with pages where you can use the data views but also use them for posts. And there are a ton of experiments and one of them is interactive grid layout where you can drag and drop things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh really?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Use it. Yeah. For different kind of content as well. So you have pictures in there, you can have a cover in there and you can have just text in there and each grid and then you can also stretch it out over two rows.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Oh yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Or two columns or two rows kind of thing. And. And it. Oh, cool. Kind of merges all that. So it&#8217;s really cool. But it hasn&#8217;t gotten any updates for a while. It&#8217;s still an experiment because of our other priorities. But it&#8217;s definitely. You see what&#8217;s coming. That&#8217;s one thing. Also to kind of okay, how can we. How can this be improved? Yeah, and kind of. Yeah, let the developers know. That&#8217;s the. Yeah, I like the grid layout too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Do some interesting things with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Definitely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Yeah. There were updates to the core data packages but they are so developer oriented and so technical that if you&#8217;re interested that just check out the changelog of 21.6. But 21.6 has one new thing and that&#8217;s. Well, it was actually in 21.5, but that&#8217;s the accordion block and I cannot talk often about it. Often enough about it. I&#8217;m really happy that the accordion block made it into Gutenberg. Now it&#8217;s still under experiments, so you need to switch it on. I think it&#8217;s the second. The second from the top on that page. I had a plan to create a post about all the experiments that I Gutenberg. But yeah, that kind of fell to the website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Well, it&#8217;s constantly changing I would think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, that&#8217;s one thing, but it&#8217;s also kind of. Oh yeah, well, let&#8217;s do the other cool stuff too. Yeah, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I&#8217;ve seen a lot of discussion about the new accordion features and I checked about. Of course, you know, I had to look at that. I still think the UI needs some tweaks. Although of course I. I think the add button is a no brainer. That&#8217;s a really good addition. So I was looking at the accordion from a user point of view. Not on the front end, but the back end. And those pan. What do they call them? Panes. They&#8217;re tucked right next to each other. I think just from a UI point of view it would be nice to add a little bit of space between them. Because I had trouble acclimating to how does this actually work and what&#8217;s going on. I hit this plus sign and then it opens up. So just a little bit more tweaking on that, I think would be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I think that&#8217;s also something to think about with block style variations, where you can actually put that in a style.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff</em>: Sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>And then I did some discovery on that because I wanted to figure out how many different designs can I come up with? My AI can come up with that. I can put a variation. How many did you discover? Right now, I did it all by hand and kind of do the discovery because I had the whole same thing. But I had too much white space. I did a background into the panel.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>That&#8217;s a good idea. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>And then I had a white space there. And so I needed to reduce the margin to get rid of that white space. But, yeah, I think that&#8217;s the design decisions. It&#8217;s so new that you&#8217;re. There are not all the supports are there. I think you can have some dimension support there with spacing and margins. So you can definitely see that in the side. In the inspector controls and the sidebar of the block. You just need to make sure that you select the right block, because there are four blocks. One is the accordion, that&#8217;s the wrapper, and then you have the header, and then you have the panel, and then you have the content. Yeah, there&#8217;s a. A lot of moving parts that if you create a style variation for that, people can just, with one click.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh, okay. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Change the design of things. Yeah. Kind of make it either an FAQ or pricing or whatever to do that. So style variations are really a cool feature. Yeah. So the next thing is. Well, the query loop block had a. Had a broken placeholder and it&#8217;s fixed now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>And that&#8217;s on small screens, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, that&#8217;s from plus on mobile, pretty much the next one is. Or Core Commands. So Commands is the command palette where you do Control K and then you get a little. Like on a Mac, you get little things and you can say Open Site Editor or add a page or something like that. And now you can now return to the dashboard. Yeah. Because you&#8217;re five levels deep in the Site Editor and now you want to go back to your post. You just open up Control K and say return to Dashboard or just type in Dashboard. And then it kind of gets you to. To that place. It also has some permission checks, so if you are not allowed to go there, you&#8217;re not you&#8217;re not going to go there. So that was kind of missing before. It was kind of. Yeah. Wherever you go, you go.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh, so it was like a back door.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Access to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Wow. But it&#8217;s all, all in the admin. There&#8217;s nothing on the front end, but it&#8217;s. I think it will. So the command palette has those in. In 28. So in the next one there will be additional commands. So command palette, you can register commands with code. So plugin can say, okay, if, if that&#8217;s a team, a team plugin with team members, you could say add a team or yeah. Update theme or something like that. And then because it&#8217;s just a one liner kind of thing, you could also then tap it into the Abilities API. That&#8217;s kind of the next step. It&#8217;s not going to be in 6.9 for sure, but it is something that you can kind of daisy chain some workflows or tab into an AI ability kind of API that then lets you also do some AI stuff there. So it&#8217;s kind of that interface that you will be in in the future more often if you so choose to. But I think that&#8217;s a really interesting development there because now, right now you always have to remember, okay, which menu is it in and where do I go and what&#8217;s the name of it? Yeah, is it template parts? Is it pattern? Is it templates? Is it pages? Yeah, what&#8217;s.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I tend to click on my little picture icon to get back to the previous screens.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, yeah, that&#8217;s what I tend to do because I don&#8217;t know how often.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, how often do you do it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. And now you can just do Control K and I like that. Then you&#8217;re back there and you don&#8217;t have to do 15 plus things. Yeah. So no, I really am quite. I like the command palette anyway. But now it has so much perspective in the future.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">New APIs</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>The next thing is about global styles and we talked about. No, we didn&#8217;t talk about it. So you can now, in the theme JSON file, you can now have support for form elements like the inputs, all the inputs on your site, or the dropdowns and selects. So if you create forms and you can style them through the theme JSON file, you don&#8217;t have to do custom CSS for that anymore. Many, many theme builders ask for this too because it&#8217;s, well, what&#8217;s a website without a contact form? Yeah, what&#8217;s a website without a get me your quote or something like that? You need some forms and then you want to style it. You don&#8217;t want to kind of have another CSS file in there. If you have those tools for theme JSON and oh yeah, the developer blog, what&#8217;s New for Developers in September Edition that came out about two weeks ago had some code examples on how you can put that in your theme JSON. Yeah, how. How you phase it and all that. Yeah. So it&#8217;s okay. It&#8217;s really cool. It shows you how to. So you get into the elements section of your theme JSON and then you have text input and then you can do borders, colors, typography, or select and have the different colors for text and background, for instance. That&#8217;s the example in the developer blog.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> So more and more we can do things in theme JSON that will allow us to use additional CSS or custom CSS less and less.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yes, that&#8217;s one thing. And you could actually write CSS in a custom.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>That&#8217;s true.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it&#8217;s. It&#8217;s such a habit to go to additional CSS and just fix something. Yeah, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Or I have very little. Well, actually this comes up later in the changelog, so I won&#8217;t get too deep into it, but I have very little in my additional CSS these days.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>That&#8217;s good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>It&#8217;s just those few instances where I just can&#8217;t do it in theme JSON.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, it&#8217;s still not particularly all covered there. Yeah. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Bug Fixes</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>So now we come to the bug fixes. And one was the randomization of the gallery block doesn&#8217;t work when the lightbox is enabled. But you had a question there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Yeah, I wasn&#8217;t thinking about that randomization. I didn&#8217;t know about that bug. But in the projects that I&#8217;ve been working on, I noticed the lack of navigation in the. The light box. So I know that that&#8217;s deep in the works now. And look, I. I just recently went to the PR and it looks like a lot of progress has been made. I think they&#8217;re about to say this is a done deal, or maybe they already have. So that&#8217;s really good because otherwise you would do all the things you needed to do to enlarge the image, but you couldn&#8217;t get to the next image in the gallery. Well, that&#8217;s not really a light box, is it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, well, everybody Lightbox, I think they&#8217;re around for 15 years now, so everybody has a different idea. But yeah, it was.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It was definitely missing navigation to. To just kind of use it as a slider that you can Slide exactly. Forward and backwards without having to. You click on the X and then you&#8217;re at the gallery and then you have to click on the next pictures and then go it up. So it was a little tedious. After the third one, everybody escaped. Yeah, that. Yeah. And PR that Anne is talking about is the 62906. If you want to go on. On the GitHub and check it out. 62906. And yeah, they&#8217;re pretty far with it. It&#8217;s some nice previous and next. And you get some. Yeah, I tested it too. Yeah. With Playground you cannot do Gutenberg and then the PR and then you can play around with it. And that was quite nicely done. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people have given input not only from the developers or from the contributor, but also from other developers and from the accessibility. Because that was. I think the first part was the accessibility part was. It didn&#8217;t kind of pan out. So they. They did some interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Oh, were the arrows too small or something?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Errors too small? No area label, no announcement. Yeah, there&#8217;s a lot of things that need to happen for accessibility there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I&#8217;m deep into accessibility these days. I mean, with this client&#8217;s site being redesigned, her brand colors don&#8217;t cut it for accessibility. And I don&#8217;t know how, but I somehow convinced her to tweak the web colors to meet the accessibility requirements. I think I was so happy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh, my God. Yeah, so it&#8217;s.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>It&#8217;s a big thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. You don&#8217;t want to get them. Get them into trouble or. Yeah. Have a. The user less optimal experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>So I think we talked about it. A plated science and classes to the experimental form block. That&#8217;s part of the getting the element section into the theme JSON part. There is an experimental form block though. So if you have the Gutenberg plugin installed and go to experiments, One of the 15 choices there is form block. So you can actually create a form from those blocks in your editor. But most people actually have a separate plugin for their forms. I&#8217;m not sure how expanded that&#8217;s going to be used. Yeah, that&#8217;s pretty much. We are through the bug fixes and then there&#8217;s one fix. So much. So the zoom out. We had this in 6.8. There was a problem that when you have the show template, you couldn&#8217;t show the template when you were in zoom out, and now they actually put it out. It didn&#8217;t work. You just didn&#8217;t get it to it. And now they actually took the. They now fixed it that the zoom out is disabled when the show template is toggled off. You need both. You need to in zoom out because when the show template is off, the renderer doesn&#8217;t see the main section of the page because that&#8217;s all the content anyway. But zoom out needs to have that main section. So it&#8217;s all kind of. Wasn&#8217;t consistently kind of working. So now they finally fixed it. Anything else? No, I think we&#8217;re through with 21.6. Except there&#8217;s some block library. Image block.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Code Quality</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Oh, yeah. And that got me thinking how useful it would be to have live updating with the alt text. Because if I change the alt text in the media library for an image, it doesn&#8217;t automatically sync to where it&#8217;s being used in a page or a post. Oh, I have to. I have to click on the image and the page or the post and replace it with the same image with the revised alt text. So I was thinking, wouldn&#8217;t it be nice if that was all synced together? And then that got me down another path. So maybe you have the answer to this question. So I noticed for, well, quite a long time, I&#8217;ve been noticing that when you&#8217;re in the image library and you click on an image, the fields differ depending on your media library mode. If it&#8217;s list and you click on an image, you get a different set of metadata or fields versus a grid. And I think it&#8217;s. With the grid. Yeah. There&#8217;s no alt text option from a list mode, but there is from a grid mode. And so why. Do you know why those fields differ?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>No, I have no idea.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> I don&#8217;t know either. Ladies and gentlemen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yes. Well, it&#8217;s interesting that you actually notice that. Yeah, I. Yeah, I always have my media library on grid, so I&#8217;m not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, me too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>I don&#8217;t. I don&#8217;t see the difference, but you&#8217;re right. Yeah. I know that the contributors are working on the media library for the admin redesign and I think it would be good to talk to them about it because they also will have a grid view and a list view, because the data views actually support that. Yeah. So to make sure that definitely needs to be consistent, you know that all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>The fields are available here, maybe in the outreach channel. I&#8217;ll put it out there and see if anyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Yeah. Or we wait until 6.9. After 6.9. Yeah. Because I think. Yeah, that&#8217;s where it&#8217;s not. 4619. We are. We are all hoping for. For the data views coming into 6.9. But I&#8217;m. The data views will be in there, but I don&#8217;t think that the admin design will come in for 6.9. That&#8217;s just not enough time. Right. It&#8217;s now only four weeks. Okay, so you have question. Oh, you have another question in there?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Do I know?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Create Block Theme</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> About the Create Block theme and style editing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Create block theme. Oh, right. Create block theme. So it&#8217;s interesting. I haven&#8217;t looked at it in a month or so. It&#8217;s good to sometimes look at it with fresh eyes. And it looks like there used to be two paths to editing the styles and it looks like those have been eliminated. You were once able to edit via this path, Appearance editor, Design styles. When you get to design and you click on styles, there&#8217;s no longer the option to edit them from that point. And then the other way would be from a page or a post. I no longer see the cbt, the Create Block theme wrench. I see it only when on the side. Templates, template parts, sync patterns. And another interesting thing, I mean this is all. It&#8217;s a lot of information here, but let me try to slow down. So both of those previous paths gave access to that full featured. What I call the full featured Create Block Theme panel. It had all the things that you can do with the Create Block theme plugin. Now the other thing I noticed is if you click on a page as if you&#8217;re editing it like a normal person would edit. You know, regular person, not normal, but regular person, the wrench is no longer there. However, if I go through the full site editor path and click on a page, the wrench appears that way. So it&#8217;s just this inconsistency, and I&#8217;m a pretty well versed user and it was a little confusing. It&#8217;s like, well, why can I get to the full feature panel this way and not that way?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. So one is that the page post editor, when you go from WP admin posts and pages goes in a slightly different editor mode than go into the appearance and editor. When I first listened to you, I thought you might. It wouldn&#8217;t be related to the create block theme because with the site editor we also have two different path to access styles. Yeah. One is through editor and then styles. There&#8217;s no design anymore. It only says styles. It&#8217;s with the navigation styles, templates and patterns. When you click on styles there, you have access to the same thing that comes if you are in the edit mode on a. On A template or on a page. You also on the right hand side there&#8217;s a styles interface. Both are now kind of pretty much on par with the features. So before a couple of months ago or maybe even longer, there was a discrepancy between what you could do on the right hand side in the styles and if you come from the left hand side. But that is pretty much eliminated. The only difference now is only how the style book looks, but it&#8217;s really marginally. Yeah, but we have one thing that comes with the next plugin release that we&#8217;re going to talk about is the additional CSS you will only access on the right hand sidebar and not on the left hand side. And that has been fixed now. So you get to the additional CSS from both sides. But the Create block theme has changed. So the great Block theme theme plugin only works in the site editor. So if you come from the pages or from the posts on the WP admin, you don&#8217;t have access to it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So you only have it in the Site editor. And I think that makes sense because that&#8217;s. It does what you do with that. Yeah, because that&#8217;s the place where you actually would edit a theme component. So it also had changed the right hand side sidebar. When you click on save the changes to the theme, you get additional checkboxes. What exactly do you want in your theme? So that definitely was an improvement there because it also included some localization from text and you could also kind of eliminate the navigation IDs and all that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>And I brought another issue up with the team several months ago, which is the cbt, which I&#8217;m calling it CBT Create Block Theme Plugin. That&#8217;s my shorthand, the page for it from the administration sidebar. When you go to it directly from the sidebar, those options differ from the full site editor pathway to it. In my mind, all of that should be the same. You should have the same access to the same features.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Well, on that settings page, the only thing that you get from there is actually what you want to do. Do you want a greater theme? Do you want to create a from scratch, do you want to clone it? Or do you want a child theme? All the other features are actually in the site editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Need to be connected with the site editor. So I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a whole lot of benefit from it to put it in a settings page that you. That has no connection to any of the other features that are in there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, I, I hear you. I understand that I just like consistency.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I think it&#8217;s less confusing when you have the same. That&#8217;s a full page devoted to it. Why don&#8217;t I have access to everything that I can do with it? That&#8217;s my logic.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Because you need the editor too. The settings page doesn&#8217;t have access to the editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Yeah, yeah, I totally understand that. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It&#8217;s like when. Why, why don&#8217;t you have the font or dimensions in a settings page? Yeah. Because it&#8217;s not the editor that has that sidebar. Yeah. Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Fair enough. All right. This is why it&#8217;s good to talk.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, yeah. But I, I hear you. With all the questions that we have there. The inconsistency is definitely something inconsistent. User interfaces overall, the whole site editor. I think there have been great strides made in the last four months to make this all more consistent. Have all the support for all the blocks like the border and fonts and dimensions that every block. Who has. Who needs it, actually has it. Because there are really some inconsistencies that some. Why does the heading not have a font size or something like that? Yeah. When everybody else, every other block has it. But that&#8217;s. It takes a. A lot of perseverance to get through I don&#8217;t know, 60 blocks and kind of make them all consistent that have been built in the last three years. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Gutenberg 21.7</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Let&#8217;s get into 21.7. The release is going to be on Wednesday, tomorrow, September 24th. We are recording this on September 23rd. So the listeners. When you, when you listen to it, it will already be out because we are not publishing it until Sunday, our episode. So let&#8217;s get into it. We are doing that from the talking through the changelog from the release candidate one that was published last week. So just to. If there are changes on what we didn&#8217;t have in there from the final release next tomorrow. Okay. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Enhancements</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>This release has quite a few additional updates on the block comment thing. So that&#8217;s part of the Gutenberg phase three collaboration phase. Where you have one is from the collaboration phase one is synchronized editing where multiple people are working on the same post at the same time, which is a bit scary, but it works in Google Docs. But we are not there yet. But what already is in the works and has been for a while is the block level commenting. So you can. You&#8217;re in your block editor and you click on. And anybody else who has access to it can go in there and say, okay, in this paragraph, change a comma, an acronym, a wording kind of thing, put it in a comment and then you can resolve it in a comment. So the comments show up in the right hand side in the sidebar and each block that has a comment has a little icon that there are comments in there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh wow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And then you can add a comment by going to the block settings, block options drop down where you also have the grouping and the before and after. There&#8217;s also now comment on the block, and then you can start commenting on it, and then it shows up in the sidebar and then other people who are also come back tomorrow or something like that can answer that or you can also resolve it. So there are quite a few improvements on that. So first is that we only talk about two of them. One is to render the comment content. So it&#8217;s rendered in the comment the content completely. So it doesn&#8217;t. And it&#8217;s still. It&#8217;s a HTML kind of thing. So you can put in links in there without having all the HTML. Yeah. Kind of anchor links there. That&#8217;s one thing. And the other one is that the user text area auto size up until now you couldn&#8217;t. You could write in it, but it kind of would go underneath the box. You had to manually kind of increase it, but now it&#8217;s auto sized. That&#8217;s really cool. Yeah, yeah. So. And I know you are a single site producer so you probably might not have a whole lot of use case for that. But I can see, I can see.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>The use for it for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Would you kind of work with your clients on that or rather with another coworker like a developer or something?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I think to educate my clients about the feature and then they could work together on content. It&#8217;s a nice collaboration tool but with any page or post only one person can edit at a time. So there&#8217;s that which is a useful barrier, unlike a simultaneous thing. So I can definitely share that with people, let them know about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>So there&#8217;s now the ability to reopen resolved comments to see enable inline comments for published posts. Yeah, so if you. Up until now when it was published, all the comments would go away. You wouldn&#8217;t see them. So there was a lot of thought going into that how it&#8217;s actually used from the previous versions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>You know, actually my brother uses WordPress. He&#8217;s a writer and he works with a rather large company. So I&#8217;ll let him know about this upcoming feature because I don&#8217;t know how they manage the editing of content and it would be good if they could do it right there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of. It could eliminate one step. So when you work with a team on a, on a content you normally go into, or we go with the developer blog and other blogs, we go into Google Docs, write the draft, have all the communication in there, including the comments there and then once all the things are resolved, you copy paste it over to WordPress and that sometimes gets you into trouble. And that copy paste step and the reformatting that is necessary kind of could be eliminated with something like that. Yeah, absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Exactly. Back in the day when I used, when I was a print Designer, we used InDesign. There is a plugin, so to speak, for InDesign where content writers could do all their magic, all their writing right in. It&#8217;s. I think it&#8217;s. It&#8217;s not in vision, I&#8217;m not remembering, but it doesn&#8217;t matter. Same concept.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> What I really like about it as a designer, they had no access to the styling, they couldn&#8217;t change the colors, size. Yeah, I really like that. You know, the head is. Just leave the head alone. It&#8217;s 24 pixels or.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Print design points.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get this. Yeah. That is actually coming also to WordPress with the write mode. It&#8217;s kind of a content only mode that you can have patterns in content only and you can only change wording on that. But the rest of it is. Even the, the structure of the pattern is locked. So there is a design mode and a write mode. It also streamlines kind of the process because you&#8217;re not distracting by all the design features you could do. Yeah, so I really like that. But that. That&#8217;s coming.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Same idea.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, yeah. It&#8217;s also. Yeah. So yeah, in 21.7 there&#8217;s also quite a few updates to the data form, especially data forms, also data views. But it has to be kind of to make the form handling kind of bringing up to par to what actually other forms are doing. So the form component has quite a few additional updates in there. So it&#8217;s the radio control, be it the Boolean field types with a toggle, you know, being. Having a URL field that can be in the field control, having a phone field. So it kind of is a build out of what you actually expect when you do forms. But it&#8217;s all in the data view. So it will be in the admin section, not on the front end. So think about when you have a post or page where you have a quick edit. Yeah. Where you can change a few things. That is the form that this is working on. Yeah. Or what the people are working on is kind of. Okay. In the admin we have a user putting data in what can. What controls do we have available for that? Not on the front end or something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Or in the edit in the block editor. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Okay, so this is just for quick view.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Well, it has a better panel for that. The whole data views has. I think Matthias talked about that in one of his blog posts on the Make Core blog about the different building blocks of the new admin design. And one of them was the infrastructure and what&#8217;s on the panel. So thinking about what are the rooms in the house. You have a kitchen that is differently furniture than the living room and you need the different tools in there. And the form is. Is in a tool you can actually create a form that is then triggered through a modal. Yeah. Or you can add. Open up another panel on the right hand side kind of the data. So those are decisions that the developer is gonna. Is going to make. So plugin developers for most of our plugin developers or core developers. And then you have different tools available for different use cases. Yeah. And. But you always need a form. Right. If a user is going to change something. So depending on how much space you need, quick is only Quick edit is just a very limited. Yeah, yeah yeah. This is going to be a little bit more comfortable to do. Yeah it&#8217;s really interesting to. To see it all come to together and how. How granular the whole development process is. Yeah. So the next ones are kind of navigation pieces. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> I noticed the changing add page to create page and it seems like such a small thing, but it&#8217;s, you know, it&#8217;s significant. I like that one. That&#8217;s a good change.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. And it reminds me, I did some. Some support in. In the forums of WordPress forums and there was one person who had trouble distinguishing between creating a pattern. Yeah. Adding a pattern.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. It&#8217;s it for. For mere mortals, I would say. Yeah, it&#8217;s the same. Yeah. I add a page. Yeah. Let me put the count. Or. But the pattern is you create a pattern that you can reuse or. Or you add an existing pattern to the page.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>It&#8217;s kind of that. Yeah. And this is pretty much similar to add a page or create a page. So add a page would be a page link that you add from your existing page and create a page as okay, I want that link, but I don&#8217;t have the page yet. And now you get a button that says create the page. And of course in the write mode it&#8217;s going to be hidden.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>And you were asking me to check on the status with the navigation block and I don&#8217;t see anything that&#8217;s changed. If you edit the navigate via the navigation area. So you go appearance, design, navigation, the UI seems to be the same as it has been for months, which is in my opinion, ugly and confusing. But if you edit via the design area. So if you just stop at appearance design and click on the navigation there, the. It&#8217;s so much more aesthetically pleasing. It just makes for a more enjoyable experience. It&#8217;s attractive and intuitive. So I know this has been on their plate for a while and when I say them, I mean all these wonderful WordPress team developers. Maybe a good place to start improving this UX is to somehow merge what we&#8217;re seeing in the design UI with the navigation UI.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, yeah, no, I get you. Yeah. I. When I was creating my theme demo, I had the same. I couldn&#8217;t do anything with the. Well, I saw the dark side of the site editor. It&#8217;s the dark side menu and on the right hand side. So when I go into a template header and just click on the navigation, it opens up the sidebar on the right hand side and there you can add blocks or add another page link and it&#8217;s, it&#8217;s very pleasing to kind of add to that. That part. You don&#8217;t have on the right hand side or on the left hand side in the dark area of navigation or all you can do is I think click on edit and then you go somewhere. But it&#8217;s the isolated navigation and it&#8217;s kind of plucked on top of the. This.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah, exactly. It&#8217;s just this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>You don&#8217;t see very nondescript piece of navigation plopped the top of the screen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>On top of the content design it. You can&#8217;t, you can&#8217;t. You don&#8217;t see it in context. Yeah, so exactly. It&#8217;s definitely something to think about in, in the. In the next few versions to come. Yeah, yeah. And there was this big or that issue that Matthias wrote about. What other new blocks do we need?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh, yes, yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>And Justin Tadlock kind of reversed his stance on what needs to be in Core and he wrote of the Gutenberg Times on why we need new blocks, and that is so theme developers can actually prepare for that out of the box. They don&#8217;t have to check. Is an accordion available from. I don&#8217;t know, the other 15 plugins that have accordions and how to style it. There is one in Core and that&#8217;s what my theme is styling the same with a table of contents block. Or there will be. So they are working on grading the table of content ready for coming out of the experimental stage, which it has been for I think three years now. Yeah. So. But there were no resources to kind of attribute to the table of content block.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> So would this be something you could use in a blog post to identify the sections of the blog post itself and they would be anchor links to that section. Oh, nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. That&#8217;s a table of content block. Yeah. And if you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I know a use of that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Several of my own blog posts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Yeah. And if you don&#8217;t have Gutenberg installed, the plugin installed, you don&#8217;t have that block. Yeah. Because it&#8217;s. It&#8217;s only available in Gutenberg and it&#8217;s not yet in Core. But there&#8217;s a big push to hopefully get it into Core. The implementation had some accessibility issues and then some usability issues, but there was kind of. The first version was in there, but then every so. And then the other contributors tried to change it, but then they couldn&#8217;t follow through on this because. Yeah. And now maybe this time is the right time. And then there is a new block. It&#8217;s called the terms query block. It&#8217;s like the query block for post, but it also is for terms. So that&#8217;s the categories and the tags. So you can list them in a rolling block in a post. So I need to see it, how it works to kind of find a good use case for it. But we probably have that. It&#8217;s already in Gutenberg and it has an order by. And with a single drop down and. And these kinds of things. So.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> So it&#8217;s almost like integrating. Could you integrate that on the same page as a. A category?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Yeah. With the descriptions and all that. Because it has the tone blocks in there. Yeah. So you can kind of. So if you. For instance, if you have a parent category and you have a blog post in that category, you can say, okay, I want. Underneath every single post, I want a list of all the categories for that parent category or the children category. So people can navigate a little bit deeper into my content forest.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> I bet that would impact SEO positively, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Well, yeah, if you don&#8217;t have too many. Too many categories and too many terms. Yeah, because that definitely. If you have too many terms, you get into the duplicate content issues when multiple terms of the same content in there, but that&#8217;s a different story. So. But it gives you more flexibility on how you can link deeper. That definitely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then we mentioned that before that in Site Editor always show the additional CSS button is now finally available in and it will come to 6.9 is what we talked about before that you did we talk about it. Well, with the Site editor you have a place where you can add additional CSS for your site. That what you, you know also from the customizer from classic themes where you had additional CSS. CSS that wasn&#8217;t in the theme. It was on the right hand side on the styles. Yeah, you could add that. But when you were on the left hand side of the styles you didn&#8217;t have a way to add the additional CSS.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>See now this really. This threw me for a loop because I never noticed that, and I can&#8217;t reconstruct the sequence of events from. I have a tutorial site using the 2024 theme and it has just a little bit of additional CSS in it. So yesterday when I noticed this and I explored and I saw my additional CSS field disappear when I deleted its contents and I was like, oh, that&#8217;s not good. And it really threw me for a loop because I always have a backup. So I uploaded my theme backup and thinking it would be in theme JSON and reinstate itself, but it wasn&#8217;t reinstated. So then I had to look at my revision history and find the spot where I was before I deleted really unsettled me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I imagine. I imagine. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>So now if you&#8217;re saying the additional CSS in the right sidebar is the same as what shows up in the. Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. So if you said okay, there must be another way to get to the additional css.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Clone to the right hand side. But that, that is such a. Yeah, it kind of really threw quite a few people. Oh yeah, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> So but why didn&#8217;t it show up in my theme JSON? That&#8217;s what I was.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>It&#8217;s not, it&#8217;s not routed through theme JSON. It&#8217;s user content. So it&#8217;s in the database and when it, when that renders, it renders the last item before the in the head with the styles. That&#8217;s the last thing that is going to pull in. So it overrides everything else what you had in theme JSON in the default. So that&#8217;s why it kind of doesn&#8217;t show up in theme JSON because it&#8217;s a different level of customization. Yeah, it&#8217;s the last defense, so to speak is the user oriented stuff. I&#8217;m glad you pointed this point in pulled in last. Yeah. You will see it so if you go to View Source, you see your additional CSS, the last style tag before you start with the content tags. All that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> All it takes. Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>You&#8217;re welcome.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I can breathe now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. But it shows you that it&#8217;s really hard to kind of keep it all straight when you have multiple places where you can change styles. Because the same thing will happen when you change. So you could change your. This appearance of a block for the whole site in the styles styles and then you go further down this typography layout and then you have blocks there. You change how each block, how a block appears every time you use it. But there&#8217;s also a place when you have a paragraph on one page and you change the look and feel of that paragraph through the right hand side with the. With the tools there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>That&#8217;s two places. And the other places theme JSON also kind of controls how a block looks. Yeah. So if something is not right, you have to look at multiple places to find the place where you can change it or where you can. Where it actually was controlled. So that&#8217;s why the additional CSS is just another place to look and to kind of control this. But I think to eliminate the cognitive load, I think learning how to put custom CSS in the theme JSON is probably a good additional skill set to have kind of take away think about not doing the additional CSS right because the advantage is also it only will be loaded. So the additional CSS is always loaded on each page even if the block or whatever you have is not on the page. But if you do it in theme JSON, it will only pulled in when that particular element or block is actually on page. So it&#8217;s actually a performance issues as well. But not a whole lot of people put a whole lot of in additional CSS. So I think it&#8217;s negligent. But just a cognitive load that kind of eliminate another place to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Right. And that ties into a whole other subject. Not for now, not for today. But CSS specificity, that&#8217;s a whole other thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh yeah, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Gets very complicated.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Volumes of books have been written about that. So the command palette is getting another update with 21.7 that is made the navigation commands available on all screens. So you can now go into your Tools menu on WP admin, hit Control K and say go to Site Editor. Then you can kind of jump like that. You don&#8217;t have to be in the editor to use the command palette. We talked about it before, but it&#8217;s getting more and more in there. Oh, there is a nice template API change that it reads really non-ecstatic. This kind of allows template duplication plus the concept of active templates. That&#8217;s something I would ask anybody who does works with template to test out. Because what it helps you is that you can have multiple single post templates on your site and only one is active. So if you have a plugin that kind of adds templates to your site. So through the template hierarchy that WordPress has, there are certain templates need to have a certain slug to be pulled automatically. So the single post or the archive pages or that. But if you want to test out different kinds of templates, right now what you do is use patterns for a certain template and you&#8217;re not adding them to templates, but you&#8217;re adding them to patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>But if you can do, okay, I have a single post template. Oh, and I also want to know how it looks without the featured image to add another single post template and then you can activate each one of them. And that makes it for a much clearer proposition on what templates do and what patterns do. And that also when you have a plugin that adds a template, because plugins now can suggest. Oh, push templates into the template editor. Yeah. Like woocommerce. Yeah. Is going to do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Or when you have a theme, a team plugin or a business directory plugin, you can get the templates into your template editor. So you can modify them. Yeah. As a user, but you already have a team member custom post type template, so the plugin would overwrite it. But if you can have multiple template duplication, deplete duplication or multiple, not only two, but more, you can just. With the activation flag, you can say which one is the one that&#8217;s going to be rendered on front page. Does it make sense?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Okay, cool. So. And I&#8217;m totally excited about that. Yeah, I can&#8217;t.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>This is. It&#8217;ll take me down so many different paths. I won&#8217;t get any work done for a month. I&#8217;ll be busy exploring and testing. That&#8217;s all good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. But Ela Vandorp, one of the Goodmoor developers, has been working on that for so long. Yeah. And when you go to the PR, it has, I don&#8217;t know, 150 comments or something like that. Yeah. But it&#8217;s. It finally made it into the Gutenberg plugin release. Yeah. Now we can test it before it goes into WordPress core in a month. So go and test it, please. Okay, everybody here on the Gutenberg Changelog Podcast needs to test this. And Aki Hamano, he&#8217;s a contributor from Japan.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh, sure. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">New API</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. He has a few things that really he contributed quite a lot to Gutenberg in the last year and he introduced a new function called Use Commands. So you can register more than one command for the command palette, which is good, especially when you kind of think about kind of getting the abilities API kind of connected with the commands palette. So yeah, for developers it&#8217;s definitely something to check out how you can add additional commands to the command palette for your users. Your agencies probably can change some of the workflow hiccups that some of the clients have. Yeah. If you can add a command to it and you teach them to control K and you something, that&#8217;s definitely good. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Bug Fixes</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of bug fixes, bug fixes, data form fixes. Yeah, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything I wanted to point out except the global styles bug fix was. Is that the border radius presets kind of had a little bug in there that it generated the wrong variable name in pattern code. And that is definitely fixed. It works. Thank goodness it works good for them. In the block library accordion now has a block gap support. I think that&#8217;s what you are kind of thinking about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Oh sure. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>That is now in 21.7 and then you also have a term list drop down.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Oh, there was a limit. What is. What is the new limit?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>I think it&#8217;s now 100.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Oh, I was just thinking yeah, 100 would be good and I would never get to 100 but someone might.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It takes 10 to 100. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>So okay, that&#8217;s quite a limit. 10.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well, you shouldn&#8217;t use too many terms because each term creates another page. A page that needs to be indexed and doesn&#8217;t have a unique thing there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Content only pattern patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Yeah, that&#8217;s definitely something to test. Is kind of added content in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>So the purple icon was taken away.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>I think so, yeah. Well, in the right mode. Yeah. It&#8217;s kind of that mode where you only can change certain things and not do design. So unsync patterns are actually content only by default. So when you add them to the page you only kind of change content if. If it&#8217;s in the write mode. Yeah. So you don&#8217;t get distracted by certain things like edit. Yeah. If you want the pattern to be. It&#8217;s unsynced so it doesn&#8217;t propagate the design over every usage. But you still want to have a consistent layout. And then editors who use that in on the page shouldn&#8217;t change the composition of the pattern, only the content that&#8217;s. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Experiments</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And then there&#8217;s a pattern content only experiment that makes the template parts section blocks. Yeah, that was one thing that came out of section styles that&#8217;s in 6.6. IIn WordPress 6.6 is that you have patterns that are actually sections and you could style them through JSON files. And then you only get in the style section of the right hand side. You get, I don&#8217;t know, two or three styles and every. The pattern changes its look and feel according to their styles. But it was hard to figure out what makes a pattern a section and whatnot. So it ended up that every group block was actually a section. So the styles would apply to other group box as well that were not meant to do. But there was no way to say okay, only for section styles. I want these. So this call for action or call for call for action block or book kind of things. So it was a little confusing for the users to apply that and some of the features. So in zoom mode when you added a pattern you had a little, little drop, kind of a. A fluid drop that would. You could toggle through. Not toggle, browse through. All the styles that are. Can be attached to that pattern. Oh yeah. And those also needed to be sections. But it wasn&#8217;t clear what does one pattern distinguish. The other pattern is a section. And now they are trying to do that in an experiment and see how far it gets with also the styling part. I don&#8217;t know if all that makes sense what I&#8217;m saying, but.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> No, no, I understand.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>I think that was it for 21.7 that I kind of saw. Yes, that&#8217;s it. Yeah. So now we&#8217;re coming to. I think we&#8217;re really out of time today with our. With our episode here. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s in Active Development or Discussed</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>So I wanted to talk about tabs, we need to kind of have it in front of us. Yeah. So it. They are not. So one of the new blocks that are. Is worked on is the tabs block. Okay. And the other one is the modal block or the pop up block is kind of when you. So you have a trigger, you have a block for a trigger and then when a user clicks on it, then a modal comes up and you can fill out something. That&#8217;s also in an HTML standard, but there&#8217;s no blocks there. And it definitely is a common use case for certain things. And those things are. And the same as tabs. So you have not as an Accordion where you have one header and then the panel opens and then the next header is. You have multiple tabs on top and then the panel changes. That is also in the works. I hope it makes it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff</em>: Oh, nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Makes it to the 6.9, but I&#8217;m not quite sure it actually goes there because I haven&#8217;t seen anything in the last week that kind of contributes to that. But I&#8217;m also. I might have been out of the loop there because there are so many things that going on at the same time. And I&#8217;m. I&#8217;m waiting. I know that Anne McCarthy, she&#8217;s working on the kind of what&#8217;s the state of the development now? But I hope that it comes out next week or something like that and then we have it for the next episode.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Good timing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. So WordPress 6.9 comes with really a lot of good features and also quality of life changes for. For the editor and for the flow of things. So I&#8217;m really excited about that. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> And wasn&#8217;t there a reduction in the number of releases that was decided to condense?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yes. So in January there were initiatives when Automattic said, okay, we are going to stop contributing for a while. And then the core committers then decided, okay, if it&#8217;s not that we have one more release, that was 6.8 and that would be the only release in 2025. And then in May, Automattic decided to contribute again and kind of push everything further and then said, okay, then we can also have one more release this year.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And that&#8217;s 6.9. And that&#8217;s what we are building up to. That&#8217;s also why there are so many and Gutenberg releases kind of put together into one of the. Into the major WordPress release. Normally it was kind of between 7 and 10, but now we have 15.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff:</em> Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, so yeah, yeah, but that was a good question. Yeah. Not everybody kind of know they stopped, but did we start again contributing to Core? You know. Yes, we did. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Excellent. Well, I look forward to the next release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>We do, yeah. So we are at the end of the show. Thank you so much for going through that with me, Ann. It was great to talk to you again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>I know. It was great to talk with you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. As always, dear listeners, the show notes will be published on <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">GutenbergTimes.com/podcast</a>. This is episode 121, 121. And if you have questions, suggestions or news you want us to include next time, send them to <a href=\"http://changelogutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a> that&#8217;s <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a> and the show notes will have all the contact information for Anne and it will be on, as I said, Gutenbergtimes.com. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>So thank you, everybody. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Thank you for thank you, Birgit. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Thank you, Anne, for your time. And I hope you have a wonderful time in fall. Take care. Bye bye. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Anne Katzeff: </em>Bye. Bye.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 28 Sep 2025 20:07:25 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:33;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"Matt: Saturday Shares\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=150000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/saturday-shares/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:2724:\"<p>A few links for you:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>From Kirschblütenboogie to Khruangbin (from Houston!), here&#8217;s a <a href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/27gcPbqPTfnjS1xnfq9jFe?si=lF1sBoR1R3SyrPOEu3c3aQ\">Saturday chill Spotify playlist I made for you to have good vibes this weekend</a>. Perfect for sunsets. Hat tip: <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielgruneberg/\">Daniel Gruneberg</a> who first introduced me to Hermanos Gutiérrez.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://openssf.org/blog/2025/09/23/open-infrastructure-is-not-free-a-joint-statement-on-sustainable-stewardship/\">Open Infrastructure is Not Free: A Joint Statement on Sustainable Stewardship</a>. &#8220;Billion-dollar ecosystems cannot stand on foundations built of goodwill and unpaid weekends.&#8221;</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Chat-based photo editing is one of the most magical uses of AI right now, and <a href=\"https://blog.google/products/photos/android-conversational-editing-google-photos/\">Google Photos just made it available to everybody</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Did you know <a href=\"https://automattic.com/expectations/anti-glossary/\">Automattic has an anti-glossary</a>?</li>\n\n\n\n<li>It&#8217;s cool to see <a href=\"https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2025/07/07/copyleft.html\">Vitalik Buterin come around to copyleft licenses</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>I&#8217;m going to <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQDNgy774sg\">re-link the Grit interview, some people are saying it is their favorite they&#8217;ve seen of me in years</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>BCG has an annoyingly-good rundown of <a href=\"https://www.bcg.com/publications/2023/corporate-development-finance-function-excellence-art-of-capital-allocation\">The Art of Capital Allocation</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://siliconangle.com/2025/06/26/linux-foundation-open-source-ai-opensourcesummit/\">The Linux Foundation thinks open source contributes $9 Trillion in global value</a>. Really what we&#8217;re doing is sharing the technological phylogenetic branches for humanity&#8217;s progress.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://arstechnica.com/science/2025/08/study-social-media-probably-cant-be-fixed/\">A great interview with Petter Törnberg on his paper about how social media might be structually dysfunctional</a>. &#8220;Rather than bringing us together into one utopian public square and fostering a healthy exchange of ideas, these platforms too often create filter bubbles or echo chambers.&#8221;</li>\n\n\n\n<li>See <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4JxqES_Gzk\">Harry Mack meet Will Smith and Martin Lawrence</a>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Fun fact: this post has the ID of &#8220;150,000&#8221; in <a href=\"https://codex.wordpress.org/Database_Description#Table:_wp_posts\">my wp_posts table</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 28 Sep 2025 01:31:04 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:34;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:99:\"Gutenberg Times: WordPress 6.9 is coming, moar plugins, Query block and fonts—Weekend Edition 342\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=41984\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:106:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-9-is-coming-moar-plugins-query-block-and-fonts-weekend-edition-342/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:19187:\"<p>Hi there, </p>\n\n\n\n<p>I send you greetings from Gdynia, a polish port city on the East Sea, with some pirate roots, maybe. My only clues are pirate theme of the WordCamp Gdynia, with the Wapuu, the harbor cruise on a pirate ship, and the branding assets of the WordCamp. For one of my slides, I had Gemini create a background image to celebrate the Site Editor the pirate way. </p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<p>Enjoy the weekend edition and have a fantastic weekend!</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, <img alt=\"💕\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f495.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /><br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-group\" style=\"padding-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<nav class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents\"><ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-9-is-coming-moar-plugins-query-block-and-fonts-weekend-edition-342/#wordpress-6-9-is-coming-into-focus\">WordPress 6.9 is coming into focus. </a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-9-is-coming-moar-plugins-query-block-and-fonts-weekend-edition-342/#0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-9-is-coming-moar-plugins-query-block-and-fonts-weekend-edition-342/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-9-is-coming-moar-plugins-query-block-and-fonts-weekend-edition-342/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor.</a></li></ol></nav>\n</div></div>\n</section>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"wordpress-6-9-is-coming-into-focus\">WordPress 6.9 is coming into focus. </h2>\n\n\n\n<p>I almost missed it; <strong>Anne McCarthy</strong> <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/07/28/roadmap-to-6-9/#comment-47884\">commented</a> on the Roadmap post that some priorities changed for WordPress 6.9:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list has-light-background-background-color has-background\">\n<li>&#8220;Added in a “New blocks<strong>” section</strong> under “Refining Content Creation” after there’s been a shift in momentum there.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Removed “An initial experimental version is planned in the Gutenberg plugin, where contributors can opt-in and offer feedback” under “New WordPress Admin experience” as that’s no longer planned based on the current state of work.&#8221; </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>McCarthy</strong> is also <a href=\"https://nomad.blog/2025/09/24/exploring-work-in-progress-for-wordpress-6-9-v2/\"><strong>Exploring work in progress for WordPress 6.9 v2</strong></a> on her personal blog. You&#8217;ll find videos and links to all the pertinent information. It&#8217;s a lot; you probably have to be selective to digest it all. She updates us all about:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Ability to hide blocks</strong>: The first version will just be a hide/show menu item. Don&#8217;t get rid of the Block Visibility plugin just yet.  </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Command Palette everywhere</strong>: It is already available in GB 21.5. Additional work is done on the back end to solidify the API. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Block commenting</strong> has received a myriad of updates, and the UI is still refined. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>New block</strong>: summarizes work around already merged Accordion and Post Term query blocks and work on the way for the Page breakcrumbs, Icons, Stretchy, Tabs, Time to read, and Table of Contents blocks.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Simplified site editing</strong>: Two different experiments are pursued, one more Write/Design mode and the other is a Pattern ContentOnly idea. Videos and more details are in the post. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Expanded template management</strong>: work around duplicate templates, switch which one’s active, disable theme templates &amp; keep your custom ones, and use the new “Active templates” view.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Various dev updates</strong>—standardized UTF-8 support, Abilities API, Interactivity API, Block bindings. </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jamie Marsland </strong>gave a sneak peak on <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXUfsECVFI\"><strong>WordPress 6.9 in 250 seconds</strong></a> and covers <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/\"></a>Block-level commenting, improved template management and portability across themes, block hiding, and more powerful editing controls.</p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Last month, <strong>Justin Tadlock</strong> already published a tutorial on how to <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/08/registering-custom-social-icons-in-wordpress-6-9/\"><strong>register custom social icons in WordPress 6.9</strong></a> on the WordPress Developer Blog. With the new WordPress version to be released on December 2, 2025, developers will be able to create block variations using JavaScript for editor registration and filter the block_core_social_link_get_services hook for frontend display. The tutorial demonstrates building a plugin that adds Ko-fi, IMDB, Letterboxd, Signal, and YouTube Music icons, including proper brand color styling for both logos-only and standard variations, making social media integration more flexible and customizable.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p><img alt=\"🎙\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f399.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /> The latest episode is <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-122-gutenberg-21-8-and-wordpress-6-9/\">Gutenberg Changelog #122 – Gutenberg 21.8 and WordPress 6.9</a> with Beth Soderberg of <a href=\"https://bethink.studio/\">Bethink Studio</a></p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full is-style-no-vertical-margin\"><img alt=\"Gutenberg Changelog 122 with Beth Soderberg\" class=\"wp-image-42236\" height=\"193\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Screenshot-2025-10-11-at-12.32.48.png?resize=652%2C193&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-small-font-size\"><em>If you are listening via Spotify, please leave a comment. If you listen via other podcast apps, please leave a review. It&#8217;ll help with the distribution.</em></p>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>During their latest <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28VenSxzTZs\"><strong>WPCafe #128 </strong></a>show, <strong>Keith Devon</strong> and <strong>Mark Wilkinson</strong> of Highrise Digital shared how they use the block editor to support their sales effort.</p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ajit Bohra</strong>, Lubus, released the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/blablablocks-formats/\"><strong>BlaBlaBlocks Formats</strong></a> plugin that adds custom RichText formats, like highlights and tooltips, to your WordPress site. You can review the <a href=\"https://github.com/lubusIN/blablablocks-formats/wiki\">documentation</a> on GitHub.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/blablablocks-formats/\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42037\" height=\"326\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/BlaBlaBlocksFormats.png?resize=652%2C326&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></a></figure>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Justin Tadlock</strong>, developer advocate at Automattic, announced the release of a new <strong><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/x3p0-breadcrumbs/\">Breadcrumbs Block </a></strong>plugin version. It now supports the built-in Layout and Block Gap (Spacing) features, and developers can extend the block with custom code.  Checkout the <a href=\"https://github.com/x3p0-dev/x3p0-breadcrumbs/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md\">Changelog notes</a> for information on styling this block in your themes. </p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42046\" height=\"353\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-27-at-10.17.50.png?resize=652%2C353&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Troy Chaplin</strong> updated his <strong><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/block-accessibility-checks/\">Block Accessibility Checks plugin</a></strong>. Version 2.1 brings a mix of accessibility improvements, developer-focused enhancements, and a much cleaner user experience. Chaplin recorded a short demo video walking through the plugin in action, including validation of both core and custom blocks right in the editor, as well as a tour of the brand-new settings page. <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvunSl2j1CU\">A demo of version 2.1 of the Block Accessibility Checks plugin for WordPress</a></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mitch Canter</strong> just wrapped up an awesome online workshop for the WordPress training team on <a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/26/mastering-the-query-loop-block-in-wordpress/\"><strong>Mastering the Query Loop block in WordPress.</strong></a> The recording is now up for you to check out! You&#8217;ll dive into how the Query Loop block works and turn it from something that seems super complicated into your new best friend for creating dynamic and eye-catching content. You’ll discover how to tell WordPress exactly what content to grab and how to make it look good… all without having to write a single line of code. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Bud Kraus</strong> looked into <strong><a href=\"https://kinsta.com/blog/variable-fonts/\">variable fonts in WordPress themes</a></strong>, explaining how these fonts can hold different weights and styles all in one file, making them faster than regular web fonts. With the update in WordPress 6.1 that adds <code>theme.json</code> support, variable fonts can load quicker, offer more design options with custom weights, and adjust nicely for different screen sizes. Kraus shows how to use fonts like Vollkorn in child themes, create simple plugins for controlling weights, and add fonts through the Font Library, highlighting how variable fonts are both efficient and versatile in design.</p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-callout undefined not-color-set\" style=\"border-color: #f9f9e5; border-radius: 22px; border-style: solid; border-width: 0; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: left; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: #f9f9e5;\">\n<p><strong> <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2025&#8221;</a> </strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a> | <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong> | <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong> | <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong> | <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2024/\"><strong>2024</strong></a></p>\n</section>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor.</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><br />In his post, <a href=\"https://wordpress.com/blog/2025/09/23/telex-turns-everyone-into-a-wordpress-block-developer/\"><strong>Telex Turns Everyone into a WordPress Block Developer</strong></a>, <strong>Nick Diego</strong> explores Telex, Automattic&#8217;s experimental AI tool that converts natural language prompts into functional WordPress blocks. Unlike traditional block development requiring React, JavaScript, and PHP expertise, Telex democratizes the process for site owners, agencies, and developers. Users simply describe desired functionality, and Telex generates working blocks within minutes using WordPress Playground. The tool supports iterative refinement through follow-up prompts or direct code editing, making WordPress block creation accessible to everyone regardless of technical background.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>You can also review the discussion on Reddit r/WordPress space: <a href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/1nozn1k/did_you_try_wordpress_telex_its_awesome/\">Did you try WordPress Telex? it&#8217;s awesome!</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> continues his Blockdevelopment Cook Book series on YouTube with <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIMbcHF-g3M\"><strong>Customizing the WordPress Build Process Made Easy!</strong></a> He explained how to customize the @wordpress/scripts build process to bundle a plugin with a single custom block, a JavaScript file that registers a block variation, and a CSS file to style it. &#8220;We’ll keep things neat by organizing the block code in a blocks directory and the JS/CSS in a resources directory—a clean and tasty setup for your project! &#8221; he wrote. </p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-callout undefined not-color-set\" style=\"border-color: #eeeeee; border-radius: 26px; border-style: solid; border-width: 0; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: left; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: #f3efe9;\">\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/\">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now also available via <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json\">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">Email me </a>with your experience</p>\n\n\n\n<p><img alt=\"GitHub all releases\" src=\"https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/bph/gutenberg/total?style=for-the-badge\" /></p>\n</section>\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\">For questions to be answered on the <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-group\" style=\"padding-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;\">\n<p>Featured Image: </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Don&#8217;t want to miss the next Weekend Edition? </strong></p>\n\n\n<form action=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/\" autocomplete=\"on\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-form ngl-form ngl-portrait\" method=\"post\"><div class=\"ngl-form-container\"><div class=\"ngl-form-field\" style=\"margin-bottom: 25px;\"><label class=\"ngl-form-label\" for=\"ngl_email\"><br />Type in your Email address to subscribe.</label><div class=\"ngl-form-input\"><input autocomplete=\"email\" class=\"ngl-form-input-text\" id=\"ngl_email\" name=\"ngl_email\" required=\"required\" style=\"border-radius: 21px;\" type=\"email\" /></div></div><button class=\"ngl-form-button\" style=\"background-color: #005075; border-color: #005075; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; color: #ffffff; border-radius: 21px;\" type=\"submit\">Subscribe</button><p class=\"ngl-form-text\">We hate spam, too, and won&#8217;t give your email address to anyone <br />except Mailchimp to send out our Weekend Edition</p></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay\"><div class=\"ngl-message-svg-wrap\"><svg fill=\"none\" height=\"24\" stroke=\"#fff\" stroke-width=\"2\" viewBox=\"0 0 24 24\" width=\"24\" xmlns=\"http://www.w3.org/2000/svg\"><polyline points=\"20 6 9 17 4 12\"></polyline></svg></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay-text\">Thanks for subscribing.</div></div><input id=\"ngl_list_id\" name=\"ngl_list_id\" type=\"hidden\" value=\"26f81bd8ae\" /><input id=\"ngl_double_optin\" name=\"ngl_double_optin\" type=\"hidden\" value=\"yes\" /></form>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n</section>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 27 Sep 2025 09:29:48 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:35;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:47:\"Matt: Five Publications I’d Love on WordPress\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:22:\"https://ma.tt/?p=51331\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/big-five/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1808:\"<p>When WordPress started in 2003, I never dreamed it would power over 40% of websites, nine times the number two CMS, but I wrote on a notecard a list of five publications I admired and respected so much I wanted them to run on WP someday. In the interest of sharing your dreams to help them come true, here they are:</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/\">Atlantic</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.economist.com/\">Economist</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/\">New Yorker</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/\">New York Times</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.wsj.com/\">Wall Street Journal</a></li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>And one bonus: <a href=\"https://www.chron.com/\">Houston Chronicle</a>. (Gotta root for the hometown.)</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There has been uneven progress toward this over the years; we&#8217;ve gotten some of the NYT and all of the New Yorker at one point, only to have them revert under new CTOs. Also, there have been some unexpected huge wins, like when <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2023/07/chorus-and-wordpress/\">Vox Media retired its proprietary CMS Chorus and brought over amazing publications like The Verge and New York Magazine</a>. For any projects related to these publications, including trials or micro-sites, I&#8217;d be happy to provide my feedback on architecture, design, and opportunities, and contribute <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a> and <a href=\"https://wpvip.com/\">VIP</a> resources wherever they could be helpful. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>I believe the most crucial aspect to get right for these customers is real-time co-editing, which is on the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/\">Gutenberg</a> roadmap and shipping soon. If I were writing this list today I might choose some different targets.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 27 Sep 2025 03:28:52 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:16:\"Matt: Harry Mack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149863\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/harry-mack/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1480:\"<p>I love the culture of freestyle rap, it&#8217;s so inspiring to see how people can create such rich poetry riddled with allusions and puns on command. Last week <a href=\"https://matt.blog/2025/09/19/with-harry-mack/\">I got to meet Harry Mack</a> and see him improvise live and it totally makes sense that he has a jazz drums background. If you&#8217;re not familiar with <a href=\"https://www.harrymackofficial.com/\">Harry Mack</a>, this is a good example of him taking three words: Imported, Lurking, <a href=\"https://automatic.com/\">Automatic</a> and freestyling with them. (BTW, if you noticed, we finally got the domain spelled correctly.) </p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed alignwide is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n\n\n\n<p>There is a video chat site called <a href=\"https://www.omegle.fun/\">Omegle</a> that paired you with random people, and Harry would record these encounters, such as <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mccIi2YOFgQ\">this cute one with girls from Sweden who gave him the words Cartoon, Titan, Death</a>. It&#8217;s awesome to <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4JxqES_Gzk\">see him meet Will Smith and Martin Lawrence</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For some fun WordPress rap history, check out when <a href=\"https://youtu.be/KG5vJKOwsjw?t=195\">Childish Gambino referenced me in a rap he performed on Tim Westwood back in 2012</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 26 Sep 2025 06:38:37 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:37;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:91:\"Open Channels FM: 12 Tips for WordPress Businesses Navigating the WordPress Media Landscape\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109514\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:98:\"https://openchannels.fm/12-tips-for-wordpress-businesses-navigating-the-wordpress-media-landscape/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:211:\"To enhance your business visibility in the WordPress ecosystem, employ strategies like mapping channels, collaborating with influencers, sponsoring newsletters, and tailoring content to different audience needs.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:44:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:38;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:97:\"Open Channels FM: How a Global Cake Brand Was Built Using WooCommerce and Open Source Communities\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=110411\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:104:\"https://openchannels.fm/how-a-global-cake-brand-was-built-using-woocommerce-and-open-source-communities/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:184:\"In this episode, nurse-turned-baker Precious shares her journey of launching \"Cakes in a Jar\" with WordPress and WooCommerce, blending her Zimbabwean roots with a vibrant online brand.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 25 Sep 2025 09:38:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:39;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:19:\"Matt: Telex Remixes\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149897\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:36:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/telex-remixes/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:2093:\"<p><a href=\"https://telex.automattic.ai/\">Telex has launched a new design and a gallery of some interesting examples</a>. It&#8217;s really cool to see what people are starting to do with Telex, it really gets back at the fun of hacking and coding at the beginning, when a computer does something for you that makes you gasp.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>My colleague <a href=\"https://eduardo.blog/\">Eduardo Villuendas</a> has <a href=\"https://telex.automattic.ai/MTc1ODc1MjQ3OTpmYzVkOWQ2YWRkNWVhN2UwYWM5MQ==~NjU4NTk0OjIzNjA5YWIzLTE3OGQtNDRjZS1iYzc5LThjMGI1OGFiMTUwZDo3NTZiZTdjYTEwNzMyM2EyNjAyZg==\"> been making some cool music with it</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n		<figure class=\"wp-block-jetpack-videopress jetpack-videopress-player\">\n			<div class=\"jetpack-videopress-player__wrapper\"> </div>\n			\n			\n		</figure>\n		\n\n\n<p>This really gets to my vision for Gutenberg to be a builder that anyone can use to create an incredible website, like legos anyone can assemble anything they imagine on the web. This is why I said <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/\">Gutenberg</a> is bigger than WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://jeffpaul.com/2025/09/pong-block/\">Jeff Paul made a game of Pong</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://juanma.codes/2025/09/19/playing-with-telex-building-a-mermaid-diagram-block-in-just-a-few-prompts/\">JuanMa Garrido made a mermaid diagram</a>. (Which I have never heard of before.)</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://ivanovicmarko.com/2025/09/17/space-dots/\">Marko Ivanović did a beautiful dot art thing</a>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Hat tip to the <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/\">Gutenberg Times</a>. As I said in 2022, <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeigCZuxnfY\">you need to learn AI deeply</a>, there is so much fun stuff happening. They even <a href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/1nozn1k/did_you_try_wordpress_telex_its_awesome/\">like it on Reddit</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nick Diego writes <a href=\"https://wordpress.com/blog/2025/09/23/telex-turns-everyone-into-a-wordpress-block-developer/\">how Telex Turns Everyone into a WordPress Block developer</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 25 Sep 2025 06:23:06 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:40;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:88:\"BuddyPress: BuddyPress 14.4.0, 12.6.0 &amp;amp; 11.5.2 Maintenance and Security Releases\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"https://buddypress.org/?p=338169\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:97:\"https://buddypress.org/2025/09/buddypress-14-4-0-12-6-0-11-5-1-maintenance-and-security-releases/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1916:\"<p id=\"block-f32b73e5-6b93-4d6d-bd23-61aefd49fc8d\"><a href=\"https://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/buddypress.14.4.0.zip\">BuddyPress 14.4.0</a>, <a href=\"https://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/buddypress.12.6.0.zip\">BuddyPress 12.6.0</a>, and <a href=\"https://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/buddypress.11.5.2.zip\">BuddyPress 11.5.2</a> are all now available. This is a security release. Please update as soon as possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p id=\"block-9cfb5de9-d8ba-42e2-b91c-4a75b3e6b832\">14.4.0, 12.6.0 &amp; 11.5.1 fixed one bug and one security issue:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\" id=\"block-2fb851f4-045c-4a07-a303-ca6033780916\">\n<li>The BP REST API signups endpoint could leak signup data, including user email addresses, because of a too-lenient lookup function. Thanks to Asim Alshaya for responsibly reporting this issue.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Improve behavior of <code>bp_email_unsubscribe_handler()</code>. After the changes in the &#8220;Improve security of status update messages&#8221; changeset, non-logged-in users clicking an unsubscribe link received no feedback on the success of their action.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Note: 11.5.2 contains the same code changes as 11.5.1 but has been repackaged to hopefully resolve some SVN oddities.</p>\n\n\n\n<p id=\"block-4e4b201c-6d17-4a66-8eec-d472dfdec7ac\">For complete details, visit the <a href=\"https://codex.buddypress.org/releases/version-14-4-0/\">14.4.0 changelog</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-8935e1e5-ef63-42ee-8c08-67fad827159a\">Many thanks to our 14.4.0 contributors </h2>\n\n\n\n<p id=\"block-a8b36bfc-7855-4e99-ba54-508a3776b715\"><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/emaralive\">emaralive</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jjj/\">jjj</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/r-a-y/\">r-a-y</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/vapvarun/\">vapvarun</a>, and <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dcavins/\">dcavins</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 19:30:21 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12:\"David Cavins\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:41;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:80:\"WPTavern: #186 – Dave Winer on Decentralisation, WordPress and Open Publishing\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=199649\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:93:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/186-dave-winer-on-decentralisation-wordpress-and-open-publishing\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:65469:\"<details>Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress, the people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case Decentralisation, WordPress and Open Publishing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today we have Dave Winer. Dave&#8217;s journey into the heart of Silicon Valley began in the 1980s when he left Wisconsin and moved to California with two products and a dream to achieve fame and fortune in the world of technology. Driven by a deep belief that real communication involves people truly connecting, he set out to make his mark.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Early on, he found himself in a memorable meeting with Steve Jobs. Both were in their early twenties, bursting with ambition and self-assurance. Their encounter was fiery and competitive, yet it marked the start of Dave&#8217;s lifelong mission to wire the world together, not just with technology, but by bringing people closer through it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;ve ever subscribed to a blog, listened to a podcast, or shared your thoughts online, chances are you&#8217;ve benefited from Dave&#8217;s pioneering work. He&#8217;s the developer behind influential technologies like RSS, and a longtime advocate for open, user owned, publishing platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He describes himself as someone who wrote the first versions of lots of software, wants to work with everyone, still has big ideas, he likes things to be open from top to bottom and doesn&#8217;t care for greedy people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today we&#8217;re talking about the vision, history, and future of the open web. Dave reminisces about the origins of today&#8217;s internet, the early days when idealism and collaboration were at the web&#8217;s core. He shares stories from his career, the rise and fall of early software startups, and how the initial spirit of community slowly gave way to the walled gardens of big tech giants like Facebook, Google, and Twitter.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the conversation isn&#8217;t just about nostalgia. It&#8217;s a call to action for reclaiming the internet&#8217;s potential. Dave explains what went wrong with the evolution of the social web, why he thinks blogging tech like RSS just need more love, and how the influx of money and centralisation stifled the creativity and interoperability the web was built for.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You&#8217;ll also get to hear about Dave&#8217;s latest efforts to reignite those original web ideals. He reveals the thinking behind Wordland, a minimalist and powerful writing tool for WordPress users that puts freedom, portability, and open protocols front and centre.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave also lays out his Textcasting manifesto, challenging platforms to truly support writers with features like unlimited length, markdown support, and true ownership of content, without the need for permission or platform lock-in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave truly is a pioneer of the internet, and is certainly not finished yet. He&#8217;s putting WordPress at the centre of many of his future endeavors.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re passionate about owning your content, deeply curious about web history, or looking for inspiration on how technology can empower rather than control, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Dave Winer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast today by Dave Winer. Hello Dave.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:26] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Hey, how you doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I confess, I&#8217;m going to get this out the way and I&#8217;m going to put it on the record because Dave Winer has been in my brain for about 20 years or more. And I&#8217;m going to allow Dave the opportunity to do a bio. He may lean into that and tell us many, many things, or he may not. But I would just like to offer my profound congratulations for many of the things that I literally have as the foundational bits of my working life.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Many of those bits are because of you, and I would like to express my enormous thanks for the way that you&#8217;ve done that, the stuff that you&#8217;ve built, the method in which you deployed that, and the way that you didn&#8217;t tie it up to a subscription model.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And, with that out of the way, I would just like to offer you the opportunity to introduce yourself. So do you mind just little potted bio, two or three minutes tops, something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:18] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Wow. I didn&#8217;t realize I was gonna be doing this. Well, I&#8217;m a software developer and a blogger. I started software development when I was a grad student in the 1970s, at the University of Wisconsin. And I immediately knew that this is what I was going to do in my whole career. Up to that point, I didn&#8217;t know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It just fit. Everything about developing software, and communication with software. I used to call it communication with a big C. So you talk about communication with a little C is like wiring everything together. But the big C, its people getting connected. And that was going back to the, I guess the early eighties.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I moved from Wisconsin to California to Silicon Valley, and I had two products. My goal was to go to California and achieve fame and fortune, and it didn&#8217;t happen all at once at least. One of my first meetings was with Steve Jobs, and we were both exactly the same age, 23 or something like that, and very arrogant and full of ourselves, and we ended up insulting each other, and I have a lot of regrets about that because I had the two products and he wanted the wrong one. And I told him, man, that&#8217;s the wrong one. You should want the other one.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And anyway, so I ended up hooking up with a company that eventually became the biggest software company in the valley and then exploded. And then I started my own company. And that was a pretty long haul. But we got there. We made software for the Apple 2, the IBM PC, the Macintosh.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We had a really big hit in 1986, product called MORE. It was a really good product, but it also hit the market at exactly the right time. And then I sold the company and then I started developing software on my own, because that&#8217;s really what I always wanted to do. I was a CEO because I had to be, because nobody else understood the idea, that we were doing there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that&#8217;s actually been the story of my life, is like when I start something, I tell everybody how great it&#8217;s gonna be, and then they look at me like, what are you talking about? I have no idea. Or, that&#8217;s not useful. Or AI, this is what they say today. Oh, AI is gonna do that for us. And I go, no, I actually, I don&#8217;t think it is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so one thing led to another. I started making software on the web. I saw the web as complete liberation. Because the tech industry had gotten so congested with the power of the big companies. This happens periodically by the way. You end up, they get, they lock themselves in, and then they just protect their lock in. And then nothing happens for a while, and then an explosion happens, usually. A new company comes along with a big idea, and the big companies don&#8217;t understand it, and all of a sudden. And that was the web.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there were things before that. The PC was like that to some extent. The Mac was. Rock and roll was like that for sure. The Beatles fit into that pattern of things that fundamentally changed everything. And the web was one of those things too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it blew the doors off the tech industry. Whenever a big tech company tried to dominate the web, it just didn&#8217;t work. It didn&#8217;t work. Until eventually it did work, and now we&#8217;re pretty thoroughly dominated. We got dominated by Facebook, by Google. Twitter, very influential company, and a few others, and now it&#8217;s Bluesky. They&#8217;re out there telling them that everybody, that they&#8217;re decentralized and whatever. They say they&#8217;re on the web, they&#8217;re not on the web.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The web means something. It means that I can add a feature that hooks into your product and I don&#8217;t need your permission to do it. That&#8217;s what you have to have for the web.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You also have to have links. If you don&#8217;t give the person writing in your environment the ability to put hyperlinks in their text, you can&#8217;t say you&#8217;re the web. Because you&#8217;ve deprived the writers of the one most essential thing that they need, the ability to defer to somebody else as the expert on this topic, and build these structures. Twitter, took that out. They just said, we don&#8217;t need that. Or put character limits on it. Or they said no titles. Or you can&#8217;t edit your post, or you can&#8217;t put a podcast, you can&#8217;t put an audio on there, on a post. And they add an API and that&#8217;s really nice, but it&#8217;s still, you don&#8217;t get that freedom. There&#8217;s nothing like that there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I watched the internet develop in much the same way as I might watch a game of, we call it football, you may call it soccer, in that I&#8217;d be in the crowd and all of these characters are moving around on the field and doing important things and it just develops.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The game is afoot and it develops and it&#8217;s like evolution. Curiously, you were one of the people on the field kind of making these decisions. And so with the benefit of hindsight, looking back, it sounds like there&#8217;s a part of you which, not just a part of you, I feel like it might be a big part, which regrets a lot of the way that it has developed. The beginnings of the internet, there seem to be more, I don&#8217;t know, blue sky thinking, let&#8217;s put it that way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:19] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> We actually called it that. We actually called it that, believe it or not, a piece of blue sky. The clouds, sky is overcast and then there&#8217;s a little bit of blue sky and we&#8217;re all gonna go there. Yeah, it was like that, but what was wrong was my model was wrong. My model for humanity.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Our model, the early web people. We had this very idealistic idea of what humanity was, and how they would take advantage of the opportunity. And that includes the entrepreneurs, because they create structures where people can be very abusive to each other, and they don&#8217;t do anything really about that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then the people, and we still live with this, in fact, well this comes up sometimes people say, you&#8217;re being altruistic. I&#8217;ve heard that said, and I reject that. I&#8217;m not being altruistic. If anything trying to set an example for what we have to do collectively in order to have freedom.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you don&#8217;t, if you don&#8217;t enable your competitors, you don&#8217;t deserve users, is my feeling. And in fact, you can see that playing out in the WordPress community right now, right? That is what the big controversy seems to be. I&#8217;m gonna step back from it. I&#8217;m not part of the WordPress community. It&#8217;s not that I&#8217;m not really, I&#8217;m not. And I&#8217;m an observer of all of this, and I see it all playing out in a sort of predictable way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But as I think you said earlier, we end up in a pretty good place and I put this in one of the pieces I wrote recently about the whole why I am betting so heavy on WordPress, is that whatever you can say about Automattic and Matt and whatever, he didn&#8217;t lock you in. You have freedom of movement. All your data can move with you wherever you want. Anybody can add a feature to WordPress if they want. It probably won&#8217;t get into the main distribution, but you can build on it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I have proven that by building on it. I never hit any dead ends. What I also see there, this is another plus for this platform is, whoever it is that&#8217;s building this, and I know there&#8217;s some contention about that, it really believes in not breaking developers, and that is super important.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s one of the basic, also fundamental principles of the web, is that a website that you built in 1995, you should still be able to read it in 2025. And you can, except Google doesn&#8217;t think you should. Google as recently as 2014, that&#8217;s when HTTPS came along and became something that people wanted to use. Up until that point, HTTP was perfectly fine. And then one day Google and the EFF decided no more of this. It was very bad development. It set a bad precedent, but that&#8217;s a sidebar. That&#8217;s not the real thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What&#8217;s really going on here is, I think there is now an opportunity in the, what we call, I call the Twitter, like world, I won&#8217;t call it the social web, because it isn&#8217;t the web. That&#8217;s not fair, they can&#8217;t. They should support the web before they get to call themselves the web. And they&#8217;ve just inherited all the limits that Twitter put on there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They had the opportunity to relax those limits, but they have no incentive to do it. I could sit there, like you said, as an observer. See, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been too, for the last, whatever, 16 years. 2006, it&#8217;s 2025, 19 years, sorry, for the last 19 years. With all due humility. I&#8217;m a pretty freaking good developer, and I really work very energetically, and I love making products for users, and I&#8217;m stuck. There&#8217;s no place for me to go. And I can&#8217;t accept that. That&#8217;s all I want to say, is I don&#8217;t accept that, and I found a way to work around it, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m doing. And WordPress is key to it, central to it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;ll come onto that whole project in a minute, which is really fascinating. But I&#8217;m just gonna rewind the clock and go back to the very beginnings of what we might now call the internet.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>An academic enterprise, really, it felt like. A bunch of academics. Maybe you&#8217;ll go back as far as CERN and have those discussions about just wanting to send academic documentation to one another, and, then the hyperlink came along, and then all of a sudden this world of possibility opened up, and it felt as if there was so much positive potential there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I remember the beginnings of the internet, the burgeoning of it, people beginning to talk about it, people starting to use it on desktops and things like that. And there was this real sense positivity that it was, like it was, it was this blue sky thing. For the first time in humanity&#8217;s history everybody had a way to interconnect.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We don&#8217;t need to go into what happened, but at some point, through a whole series of dominoes falling, we get all these walled gardens, and now the internet seems like anything other than blue sky. It feels like there&#8217;s just these silos everywhere. You&#8217;ve got a Meta silo, and you&#8217;ve got an X silo, and you&#8217;ve got a TikTok silo, and a YouTube silo.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think, with hand on heart, almost everybody would be able to point to at least some downside to that. Sure, you might enjoy consuming YouTube videos, but there may be a flip side to that. You end up doing it at the wrong time of the day. I think anybody could agree that people&#8217;s passions get inflamed to the point of getting a bit out of hand on the internet.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This was never what it was supposed to be. And so going back to my question from a minute ago, where I was implying that maybe there&#8217;s some sense of regret. If you could go back and move the jigsaw pieces, or move the chess pieces differently, I expect you would. I&#8217;d expect you&#8217;d be shouting a bit louder about the need for things to be not walled in, and maybe things would be different.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:58] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I don&#8217;t think anybody hears that. I think I shouted it pretty loud. I repeated it over and over. I don&#8217;t have any regret about that, I think I did a tremendous amount of that, but the problem is, I can&#8217;t call it regret. I think that collectively there was a blogging community prior to WordPress. There was. There were competitive products. And then in 1999, it all clicked with RSS, and that gave us a way, we had ways, by the way, to find the updates on blogs before that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We had a site called weblogs.com, and it would go looking around the blogosphere, had a list. There weren&#8217;t that many blogs, okay. So it would look at all of them, see if they updated, and if they updated it would put it at the top of the list. And so bloggers were just reloading that page all day long. And it worked. You still had to find the new post, but that wasn&#8217;t too hard because they were at the top of the page, right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then after that, with Netscape, we got RSS going. And that led to a whole other generation of that kind of stuff. We had it, it was going. But what killed it. Killed is too strong a word. What put a limit on it, what said that what you described would happen is that, do you remember the .com boom, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>All of a sudden it wasn&#8217;t just a place for idealists to screw around and try out new ideas and everything. It was a place to come and get rich, and so it attracted all those people who wanted to get rich. That&#8217;s all they wanted. They didn&#8217;t care about what they had to do to get rich, and that attracted the professional investors, the venture capitalists. They want to get rich, it&#8217;s totally okay to do whatever they have to do to get rich. It just simply, it is their business to get rich, and it&#8217;s hard to blame them for that. And then, here&#8217;s the key point, they wouldn&#8217;t work with each other.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:50] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> They would not work with each other. And I just wrote a piece this morning, on my blog, and it said in retrospect, it was a retrospective thing about RSS, because that&#8217;s becoming an issue again, and it said what RSS needed was love. It needed to be loved and nurtured, and fed and taken care of, and the users had to be given features that were collective across all the products. So that if you wanted to subscribe to a feed, you didn&#8217;t have to memorize a complicated process, involving pasting URLs or reading the HTML source, or all the crazy stuff that became, until Twitter, what choice was there, right? So people had to do it, but it was tremendous weakness.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And Twitter came in and just completely blew it out. Because in Twitter subscribing was a single click. And we&#8217;re gonna hit that again now. If I&#8217;m successful in what I do, we&#8217;re gonna hit it again, and we&#8217;re gonna have to answer that question differently.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I was just gonna say, so many of the underpinnings that could have made the internet into a different place never went away, they just got ignored. Maybe that&#8217;s the wrong word, but they just got forgotten about. And so we wholeheartedly subscribed to X, formally Twitter. We wholeheartedly jumped in on Facebook, because they offered this amazing level of convenience. And of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it&#8217;s easy to see how maybe that was a catastrophic failure, but the time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:18] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I have no regrets about that either, Twitter was amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It was so revolutionary, you could suddenly connect with people that you&#8217;d lost touch with many years ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:26] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> There you go. You put your finger right on it. It wasn&#8217;t that Twitter was so great. It&#8217;s that look at all the people. One of the first experiences I had on Twitter that really, really showed me what the difference is, is that there was just this random guy. I would meet him. We had our own community too, by the way. And so we would go to conferences and, I watched the WordCamp conference from afar, right? And I said, oh, I know all those people. Because in our community we had people like that. Only there only about 30 years younger than I was, than we were, but I recognize it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And, meet somebody at a conference that&#8217;s, now I know what he&#8217;s doing with his family. I know what his sports are, who his team is, what&#8217;s the weather like where they live. And how does he describe it? There&#8217;s all these inputs that you simply don&#8217;t get from seeing somebody couple of times a year. It&#8217;s nice and everything, but this was a different thing altogether.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I still use Facebook. I don&#8217;t use Twitter very much anymore. But, I still have my account. I didn&#8217;t delete it. But I use Facebook. I will never stop using Facebook because my friends from childhood are there. Where am I gonna get new friends from childhood? That&#8217;s not happening, right. They have their advantages. But they&#8217;re a really good example of people that refuse to do anything to help anything other than their mission to make more money. I&#8217;ve had these conversations with executives at Facebook, and we&#8217;ve had a couple of, fits and starts a couple of them, twice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They were gonna add RSS support in and out, to Facebook. Kind of like what they&#8217;re doing with Threads and ActivityPub, right? Or the Fediverse. Yeah, I&#8217;m trying to forget that because I don&#8217;t believe in it, to be honest with you, but I do believe in Mastodon. I think that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re really doing here. And I think they blow a lot of smoke at these things, and they, make them seem like, they shouldn&#8217;t make them appear to be more than they are because we need to have both of those things. There&#8217;s no reason we can&#8217;t have both, but that means you have to be a little bit altruistic to use that word. You may feel like you&#8217;re being an altruist, but then look at the times we live in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the United States, we are very worried about what&#8217;s coming or what&#8217;s here right now. And we&#8217;re all asking, what can we do? What can we do? One of the things you can do is let down, open up to your inner altruist, start doing things that aren&#8217;t just about putting food on the table or getting ahead in your career.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do things that make connecting with other people a lot easier, and more free. Because those services are now owned by people that go to dinner with the government of the United States. You&#8217;ve never seen a more clear picture of what we&#8217;re up against. You think that somebody from the White House calls Mark Zuckerberg and says, get Dave Winer off of Facebook. I guarantee you I&#8217;m off Facebook in 10 seconds. That&#8217;s who we are, depending on their honor, I think that&#8217;s a really bad bet. We&#8217;re all gonna have that choice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And at the same time, people who know how to work with WordPress are gonna have an amazing advantage, because I see WordPress as being comparable to the Mastodon server and the Bluesky server, and Bluesky doesn&#8217;t give you a server to install yet, but Mastodon does. And, I didn&#8217;t install it. I had a friend because I tried and I couldn&#8217;t get it to go. That is what it&#8217;s gonna take. And WordPress is a lot easier to install, and it&#8217;s a lot more mature, and it really works and the APIs aren&#8217;t gonna break. So we got a much better foundation to build on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Going back to what you said a moment ago about, it&#8217;s not either or. What we&#8217;re imagining here, I think is, you keep your Facebook, and you keep your X, and all of those things can go. Fine, carry on using those, but there&#8217;s an alternative, which many people may prefer. There&#8217;s a whole kind of ethos behind that, and a whole philosophy behind that. But underpinning it all, things like Mastodon, and potentially WordPress, and we&#8217;ll get into that, are a bunch of APIs and protocols and things like that, many of which you were very much involved in the creation of things like RSS, and thank you for that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:38] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> More altruism there, huh?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> This entire whole podcast thing sits right on top of it. It feels like we&#8217;re going back to those things to try and, not compete, but be alongside of these other walled gardens, if you like.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:51] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Oh, I think we&#8217;re competing. I&#8217;m not scared of competition. Let&#8217;s do it. There will be differences, however. There will be. There&#8217;ll be things that you can do in this world that you couldn&#8217;t do over there. But the opposite is true as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the thing that we&#8217;re gonna do, if we&#8217;re successful, is we&#8217;re gonna influence those networks. And we&#8217;re going to get them to support markdown. That&#8217;s very specific. Just let me put markdown in my posts on Bluesky and get rid of the character limits and let me edit. And then we&#8217;re, we&#8217;re fine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You have to support inbound RSS as well, not just outbound. I have to be able to stay in my space, and contribute, and write, and have anybody read it wherever they are. That&#8217;s it. It&#8217;s saying basically, let&#8217;s actually live up to the promise of the web. And that&#8217;s what the web promised. And if you&#8217;re confident in your users will find value in your network, and there&#8217;s no reason they won&#8217;t. I&#8217;m talking about Bluesky and Mastodon, then why wouldn&#8217;t you do it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think then we&#8217;ve outed you. If you don&#8217;t want to do it. Okay, they don&#8217;t want to do it now because they don&#8217;t see it as a way of attracting new users, or keeping the users they have. They don&#8217;t see it that way because it&#8217;s true. It&#8217;s not, and that&#8217;s what we have to do. We have to make it that. They have to be hearing it all the time. You have to support markdown, that&#8217;s what Textcasting was all about. I think markdown is the mp3 of text. We did podcasting too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That was a fall out of all this stuff. I want to do radio. I love radio. I always have. And I always thought at some point I&#8217;m gonna do audio blogs. That&#8217;s what I was doing, getting ready to do that. And there we were, and one thing led to another and did I ever think about using something other than mp3? That would be crazy. It was a gift. They gave me the answer. Of course I&#8217;m going to use mp3. Why would I screw around with that? We&#8217;re gonna make it just as obvious that the other networks, if they&#8217;re gonna pretend to deal with text, they have to support a basic set of features, which are simply defined by the web. That&#8217;s it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And WordPress does all that. WordPress documents are web documents, and that&#8217;s super important. That&#8217;s everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It feels like in the last few months you&#8217;ve very much planted a flag in the sand and it feels like you&#8217;ve committed to following through on the promise that we&#8217;re about to get into. And the underpinnings of it, I&#8217;m gonna link in the show notes to this, so you want to head to wptavern.com, search for the episode with Dave Winer, and in there will be a whole list of things. Anything that discuss, I&#8217;ll basically link to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But there&#8217;s a couple of pieces which Dave has penned. One of them was in 2024, November, 2024, called Textcasting. And the URL for that is textcasting.org, and we&#8217;ll go into that in a minute. But then much more recently over on scripting.com, published on 28th of August, 2025, so very recently, was a piece which kind of built a top of that called Think Differently About WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m gonna return to the Textcasting one &#8217;cause this feels like the foundational technological underpinnings of what you are proposing here, this thing which would be a competitor to all of these walled gardens. It sits outside of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:14] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> It&#8217;s more of a, okay, for me, this is when I was planning this product. I hadn&#8217;t even begun to develop it yet. But I wanted to write down in one place, these are all the things we&#8217;re gonna do. And that&#8217;s it. That&#8217;s all it was. I keep going on and on about all the different things that I wanted that I wasn&#8217;t getting, as a writer. I am a writer and I feel like Twitter was the original one, said you can&#8217;t have all your writing tools. It&#8217;s like I&#8217;m designing a guitar. And I&#8217;m saying, you can have three strings if you want. You can play music on three strings, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The ultimate insult is the people who made this decision are not guitar players. They&#8217;re not musicians. They don&#8217;t have the slightest clue what the f they&#8217;re doing, and I&#8217;ve been told that even getting a new generation of products isn&#8217;t gonna solve this problem, because they are just as clueless about what writers need. And so at least I feel like upfront I ought to tell them exactly what I want from them. And that&#8217;s what textcasting.org is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when we give it to the people, they can say, they might say, why didn&#8217;t you tell us that&#8217;s all you want? Yeah, look at textcasting.org, and look at the creation date. I was very clear about what I wanted, but understand that I needed this for myself as the requirements document for the product I was making. I&#8217;m a blogger, so when I write a requirements document, I put it in the public, because that&#8217;s what bloggers do. It is just the knee jerk. I do write some private documents, I do, it&#8217;s true. But my impulse is to write them publicly. So that&#8217;s really all that it is. It&#8217;s just saying, this is what we&#8217;re gonna do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So right at the top, the goal is very simply encapsulated and it goes like this. It&#8217;s easy to get in your head and parse. Interop between social media apps based on the features writers needs, specifically the services of the social web, and there&#8217;s a link there, support these basic features.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then you go on to describe the ethics behind the movement is. But then you list out the things that you would like as a writer. It&#8217;s surprisingly a short list. There&#8217;s only six things, titles, optional. Links, de rigueur, you&#8217;ve gotta have links. Simple styling, bold, italics, that&#8217;s probably enough. Enclosures making it possible to do other things like, I don&#8217;t know, podcasting and things like that. Unlimited length, that&#8217;s the big differentiator, isn&#8217;t it? Because more or less all the platforms that have gained success have stifled that in some way. And then the, this is important, I think maybe this is the bit that I think is most enjoyable, editable. Go back, modify it because why not? You wrote it, it&#8217;s yours. And markdown. That basically is textcasting encapsulated in just a few sentences. I&#8217;ve probably missed a lot of the nuance there, but that&#8217;s kind of how I see it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:04] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> No, I don&#8217;t think so. Actually. Notice what&#8217;s not there? You&#8217;ll kick yourself. Comments. I don&#8217;t give a damn about comments.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Presumably the comments could be handled elsewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:15] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Absolutely, and I have a new idea for how comments should work. I wrote that up. I did a podcast about that, I think it was yesterday or the day before. I&#8217;ve had this design for many years, but I think there&#8217;s a way around all the abuse, and all the spamming that goes on these networks. I think it&#8217;s time for another look, first of all. I mean, I had a look, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But, second of all, it&#8217;s time to open it up so everybody can play in this game so we can try out lots of different ways of doing it. Which by the way is also part of what I&#8217;m doing. I&#8217;m making a, the thing Wordland. If you go to wordland.social. Go there and try it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s there. It works with your WordPress sites. And so you might think, okay, it is actually my business to make a new writing tool for WordPress. I made the writing tool I would like to use. The idea is that you focus all your attention on writing, so it has all the functionality that you need to write and nothing else.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Everything else that it does that&#8217;s in the WordPress, their command structure. And it was what I felt was in the way for me to be a writer using WordPress. Because what WordPress, I don&#8217;t want to call it a mistake, it&#8217;s just how it evolved, is that the writing functionality is intermixed with everything else. And it makes it a very intimidating thing to get started with.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so if you look at the people that are the insiders in the WordPress community, that&#8217;s a very small number compared to the number of people who have tried to use WordPress. That&#8217;s a huge number because WordPress is it, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the number of people who use it, but they might prefer a better tool because this isn&#8217;t really what they think about. The things that are in the WordPress command structure are things that most people never need to go to. It&#8217;s too complicated. Look at the feature set of Twitter, for example. And it does a lot more than Twitter does, but most people aren&#8217;t interested in that. That&#8217;s one.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Number two is, there are modes of working and writing requires severe focus. I don&#8217;t want to have to jump. Every time I have to go some random other place in the, that I have to devote my brain power to that, what I&#8217;m not doing, I&#8217;m not focused on the plan for writing. When I write something, I&#8217;m thinking three paragraphs ahead. And I&#8217;m trying to remember that because I don&#8217;t want to stop writing to take a note. I want to just go down the page and get my first draft out. But if in order to do this I have to go somewhere far away, that requires me to think, now I&#8217;ve lost my place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it creates a certain stress and programmers, if you say this to a programmer, most programmers go, oh, you&#8217;re just being weird. That&#8217;s not the way it works. Let me tell you how it works. I am also myself a programmer, so I understand the thought process, but you have to play. You have to have both roles in there. And that&#8217;s one of the things that makes me a fairly unique developer, is that I&#8217;m both a writer and a developer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I play on both sides of that fence. And so if I want a writer to test my code, I don&#8217;t do it right after I wrote the code. I come back a couple of days later, now that I&#8217;ve got a fresh way of looking at things and then I try to use it, and then I see the problems right off the bat.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;ll link to Wordland. I&#8217;ve had a good long look at the pages that you&#8217;ve offered up. I confess, I haven&#8217;t actually tried it out, but it&#8217;s a, it&#8217;s a very different take on a fairly minimal editing interface in WordPress. So I&#8217;ll make sure to link out to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:37] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> It&#8217;s fairly minimal, but it does everything on the Textcasting page. It doesn&#8217;t have the limits that all the Twitter like products have. It&#8217;s all supported, you get to do all of that stuff. And plus you get categories. And I think categories are huge. I really do. And it has a very nice, simple interface for it, but a very powerful one for categories. So, have a look at that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:59] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> And bookmarks. It&#8217;s very important for a writer. I have, I don&#8217;t know how many hundreds of documents that I&#8217;ve written over the years. I pretty much need quick access to all of them. Because I never know when I&#8217;m gonna have to make a change, and that&#8217;s in there too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:12] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Oh wait, I forgot the actual main point. The main point I was gonna make is that I&#8217;ve also, all the work I had to do on the server side to set this up, I&#8217;m not gonna make anybody have to do. That&#8217;s all open source, and I&#8217;ll even run the server for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, because what I want is a development community to pop up here. And so if somebody looks at Wordland, says that&#8217;s not the way to do it, here&#8217;s how you should do it. Say, great, go ahead, do it. And what they&#8217;ll find is, just like with WordPress, okay, there&#8217;s nothing in your way. You get to do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there&#8217;s more from that too, is that the user owns the documents, and all the documents are in markdown format. And so if you want to use a different editor on a document, just to work on it for whatever purpose, go ahead and it&#8217;ll still work in the place it came from.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And this is going back to the IBM PC and the Macintosh, where when you had those machines, you owned the documents and you could have any editor you want edit it. And this led to file format standards, because if you come along three years after Microsoft Word comes along in the Macintosh, you better read Word format documents.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Since I get to go first here, if this, if something happens, okay, that I have to say, maybe nothing will happen here, you never know. But because I got to go first, I chose markdown. Because markdown is the mp3 of text. It&#8217;s the obvious answer. And tell me why they don&#8217;t support markdown. Anything that works with text should support markdown in my opinion.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s just a nice, easy to access. The keyboard does everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:03] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> There&#8217;s more. I&#8217;ve written feed readers. All along have been writing feed readers, and we have to sterilize the content because people put all kinds of garbage. And so you basically strip everything out. I&#8217;m tired of doing that. What I want to do is give the writers the ability to put some bold face and italics, and put some links in there, and give it, all the things that are on the Textcasting thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I don&#8217;t want to strip that out anymore. And so in Feedland and in Wordland, markdown is fully supported everywhere, and in RSS. It&#8217;s a key point. If I had that to do over again. I can&#8217;t do that one. I&#8217;m sorry, I&#8217;m going on about this but I really believe in it. I couldn&#8217;t do it over again. If I had to do over again in the beginning, I would&#8217;ve made markdown the text format in RSS, totally. I couldn&#8217;t do it &#8217;cause it didn&#8217;t exist. RSS came first but I&#8217;ve taken care of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, Wordland produces its own RSS feed for every document, along with the one that WordPress produces. And the feed we produce has the markdown in it. And it has a couple of other things, and it, we will have more. As we think of more features to add. I&#8217;ve now got a place where I can add features. These are in a namespace, it&#8217;s totally non-controversial. I&#8217;m not modifying RSS, I have something called the source namespace.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then at some point, again, it&#8217;s all prefixed by if it catches on, then I&#8217;ll go to the guys that do the feeds inside of WordPress and say, here&#8217;s some suggestions for features to your feed. And at that point we&#8217;ll be friends, I hope. And they&#8217;ll, love me and I&#8217;ll love them. It&#8217;s not impossible. There are people on the team that are helping us. That&#8217;s nice, I really love that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So taking it back a little bit, we&#8217;ve got the Textcasting framework that we described a little bit, a few moments ago. That kind of feels like the underpinnings to this other piece that I mentioned. And again, links in the show notes. Think Different About WordPress. Now, I confess, I&#8217;ve been following you for many years. really, in my head, collided you with WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:08] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I wasn&#8217;t, you interpreted</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And then suddenly you pop up with this piece about Wordland for start, which is a, an editor, which binds to WordPress. And then this whole piece about think differently about WordPress. Now this is really curious because, well you tell me what you&#8217;re proposing. I could try, try to interpret it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:26] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I tried put the key idea upfront, okay. When I say Think Different About WordPress, I can tell you exactly what that is, what you&#8217;re supposed to think. I used the grammatically incorrect version that Apple uses.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Think different.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:43] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Yeah, it was cute. I thought, what the heck, let&#8217;s do it. That&#8217;s the point, really. And it is just think of WordPress as the equivalent of the Bluesky service and the Mastodon service. And the reason you can do that is because it&#8217;s really comparable. They&#8217;re all text databases, that&#8217;s what they are. They have some different structures. That&#8217;s okay, we can add structures too. But it&#8217;s how good are they at doing that, and how mature is their code, this is very technical stuff, right? But what does the API look like, and how stable is the API? These are all the concerns that limit what people can develop on the platform. And if you do the check boxes, I probably should do that, but WordPress wins on every one of them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s a lot of life behind it and a lot of commitment to backwards compatibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:35] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> It&#8217;s very simple actually. The reason it is that way is that whoever made the calls, they had a philosophy for the whole 22 years of the web will tell us what to do, and they did it. What else?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I know, I felt Rip Van Winkle, you know what I&#8217;m saying? It&#8217;s like, I was not paying attention to WordPress because I had all the wrong ideas. Now, they didn&#8217;t market to me. They never told me in 2017 they had a new API never. It. They didn&#8217;t tell me that they had a Node.js package for that API. They never told me. I was working in Node.js at that point. So I could have tried it out right away. They never told me. And all of a sudden, like I&#8217;m looking around, I need to add WordPress login to Feedland, because that&#8217;s running, we have a, at feedland.com people should try that too. Okay, because that&#8217;s a big part.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s the feed backend for the system that we&#8217;re talking about. And Feedland runs on the Automattic VIP server. So that thing scales. Okay. I learned how to write, I didn&#8217;t know how to write scalable software before I hooked up with them, in I guess it was like three years ago or something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the first thing we did is, and they were very generous about this in teaching me, and I kept finding things I had to change to make it so that you could support millions of users, right? It&#8217;s not mysterious once you learn how to do it, but there&#8217;s an art to it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The bigger project is imagine Twitter with an editor that could support. Twitter has what I call a tiny little text box, okay? You get to type something in there and they&#8217;ve extended their limit, if you pay them money, 10,000 characters, that&#8217;s a pretty good character limit. I say in Textcasting, unlimited. 10,000 is unlimited, okay. For all practical purposes, if you&#8217;re writing more than 10,000 characters, there shouldn&#8217;t be a limit, but, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you got a text editor. Twitter has a text editor. We have a text editor. Our text editor does the web the way I want it to do the web. And it has timelines where you see messages in reverse chronological order. So imagine if that was RSS, instead of their server. That timeline. You could make a timeline in RSS look just like it came from Twitter. There&#8217;s no problem with that, and that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve done. When you subscribe to feeds, what you get.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So anything that supports RSS plugs into this system, and guess what? RSS is totally replaceable. Everything that I do, you can come up with another one and it works just as well, because RSS is an open format. Yeah, it&#8217;s got a protocol with it too. There&#8217;s a RSS cloud, which I mentioned in that piece, which does the real time component of it. It worked great.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress supports it in every one of the instances they do it, and so it may be more limited than the one, but I don&#8217;t know the one that&#8217;s in Bluesky or Mastodon. It may have features that are hard to do, but like I said, then it will do features. It&#8217;ll have things that they can&#8217;t do either.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One thing it&#8217;ll do is it&#8217;ll be very, very, very, very, simple. That&#8217;s the point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What I&#8217;m thinking here is, I think that the typical listener listening to this will be thinking, how does this differ from, let&#8217;s say, going to Twitter, but it&#8217;s got a different interface and it&#8217;s got a different character limit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:59] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Not that different. whole idea is that it won&#8217;t be that different. I&#8217;m not actually running your server. Go, you could pick and choose. You don&#8217;t like my timeline, fine. Go get Joe&#8217;s timeline or Mary&#8217;s timeline or, Google might have a timeline or OpenAI might have one or. Do you need a license to create an RSS reader? No, that&#8217;s the point. The point is you get innovation, you get the doors blown off. You don&#8217;t have a silo. There&#8217;s no silo anywhere in sight.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you want the users, you have to give them features, performance or price. They don&#8217;t have to stay with you if they don&#8217;t want to. There&#8217;s no import or export. It&#8217;s just there. It&#8217;s the feeds you subscribe to. That&#8217;s really, there&#8217;s not a whole lot of technology there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. I mean, it&#8217;s a fairly nice, simple, basic proposition. It sounds from what you were saying in the Think Different About WordPress, it sounds like, well I said you planted your flag in the sand a little bit before. It sounds like you are committing yourself to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:03] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I&#8217;ve already done the work. I&#8217;ll be demoing this at WordCamp Canada in October, hopefully that will all be webcast so everybody can watch it. And it&#8217;ll be archived and it probably will crash, because that&#8217;s the way these things work, right? And, but I will stay with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I will get the bugs out. It&#8217;s gonna be a process. It&#8217;s not gonna be done, on October, whatever, 17th I think it is. It&#8217;s not gonna be done. All I ask is have a look then, and then when there&#8217;s a new version, please come have a look then too, and I&#8217;ll come back on your podcast if you want. We can talk about it as it develops. Remember the things that we&#8217;re puzzling, and don&#8217;t mistake for a minute that I&#8217;m not confused too. I am.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m gonna tell you a little self-aggrandizing anecdote. Once in, I think it was high school or something, teachers said, somebody like to come up and solve this problem, it was a math class, solve this problem on the whiteboard?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I said, okay, I&#8217;ll go. And I go up there and I&#8217;m doing it, and I got the answer, and the teacher said, you didn&#8217;t know the answer when you raised your hand, did you? No. I, it&#8217;s like, I&#8217;m an old guy now, that was when I was young. What the hell have I got to lose? Nothing. Nothing. I&#8217;m giving you software, an approach to software that I believe in. And, I&#8217;m testing the idea of the assumption.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was always told that RSS can&#8217;t do what Twitter does, and because I had not mastered server side scaled software, and remember until a couple of years ago, I had never done that. So I said, I have no way of testing that. They say you can&#8217;t do it. They know. I have my doubts about what they said, but I have no way of doing anything about it. And then I got the skill, and then I think now that it&#8217;s not true, I think that you absolutely can do it, and that they had a reason for telling me that, is that they didn&#8217;t want me to do it. Okay, that&#8217;s an invitation, a great invitation if I&#8217;ve ever seen one, right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean go for it. Let&#8217;s go for it, but let&#8217;s all go for it together. You see, that&#8217;s the point. It&#8217;s no fun if I&#8217;m just sitting here going, oh, please, I beg you, would you please try my software so I can be a billionaire too?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I was just gonna say, if you&#8217;re going into WordCamp Canada, and you&#8217;re demoing it all there, but at the moment, I&#8217;m guessing you&#8217;re doing all of the work, or you have done all of the work, by yourself. Are you hoping to create a community around this?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:31] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Yeah. I want a developer community, but in order to have a developer community, there better be some users, &#8217;cause the developers don&#8217;t come until there are users. So this is something, if a user says, what can I do to help? I&#8217;m just a user. The answer is you could do a lot to help. You can use the damn thing. Your product, your content, the stuff that you write will be a magnet for other people. They&#8217;ll see the reality of it and they&#8217;ll say, oh wow, I guess you can use stuff like this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the next question I have then is how does what you wish to do, how does that stand in relation to some of the currently existing things out there? So for example, the Fediverse, I know maybe that term&#8217;s not something you like to use, but let&#8217;s say Mastodon for want of a better word or ActivityPub, let&#8217;s go with that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>ActivityPub has a plugin which is under the custodianship of Automattic, so we&#8217;re obviously trying to bind our WordPress websites with the Fedi verse and being able to communicate in that way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:31] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> No, that&#8217;s good. That&#8217;s very good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How does yours stand in contrast to that? How, will yours differ from that familiar thing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:39] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> What that does is it&#8217;s wonderful. First, let me tell you why it&#8217;s wonderful, and then I&#8217;ll tell you, I don&#8217;t even know how to begin telling you what the difference is. But, it&#8217;s wonderful because it accomplishes at least part of the goal of bringing the Textcasting vision into Mastodon. So if I have a blog called daveverse.org, which is a WordPress blog, and when I post something there, it&#8217;s also cross posted to Mastodon. And as far as I can tell, there&#8217;s no character limit. And it has styling, and it supports links, and it has images, and block quotes. It&#8217;s got a lot of the stuff. It even has titles. That&#8217;s right, it has titles too. If you go look at the Textcasting list, that&#8217;s pretty good coverage, right? It&#8217;s a major innovation, it&#8217;s a major step forward.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what that does, hopefully it gets it onto the radar of the developers of Mastodon. The more people want that, okay, they have to make that clear. And right now, I don&#8217;t think people even know it exists. There&#8217;s not a lot of awareness of it. I&#8217;ve tried the best I can to, and I&#8217;ll keep pumping it for this reason. And the more successful it is, the more it puts pressure on Bluesky to do the same thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it&#8217;s having the same effect that I&#8217;m hoping to have and, so I like it. Remember, I&#8217;m wearing a lot of hats here, but one of the hats I wear is, as a writer who wants the freedom to use all the writing tools, I don&#8217;t want to be given three strings, I want all five strings, using the guitar anology.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So this, what I&#8217;ve done is create something that has the potential of playing the role that, the core of Mastodon does. The whole thing. The whole thing, right? It&#8217;s not comparable to a plugin that connects WordPress to Mastodon because that&#8217;s a plugin, and what they&#8217;re doing is heroic, that&#8217;s the word I use for it, Matthias and his team are doing at Automattic, are doing is heroic, because it&#8217;s a hard problem to solve. It&#8217;s taking &#8217;em a lot of time and they&#8217;re working really hard, but those guys really believe, they&#8217;re really committed. And I, love that. It&#8217;s both heroic and love inspiring. These guys are great. And they won&#8217;t have to do that for my system. They won&#8217;t, it&#8217;ll just come for free.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:50:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> With the Mastodon system, obviously the ActivityPub protocol will bind to a server of your choice. So many people go with mastodon.social as the sort of the default. Presumably there&#8217;s gotta be some part of the architecture for your system, which in that way, some central place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:50:20] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> There is a server component to what I&#8217;m doing. Okay. It doesn&#8217;t matter where that server is running. You can run it anywhere, somebody has to run it, and it&#8217;s open source, and it&#8217;s not even a GPL license, it&#8217;s MIT licensed. So go have fun with this thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it&#8217;s on GitHub right now. I&#8217;m not asking people to install it yet because I want to get a chance to like lock it down before we start cloning it. It&#8217;s going to, it is designed to be no lock-in. It is, does, require somebody to run a server</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the bit that I&#8217;m reading off the scripting.com website where, you know the piece entitled Think Different About WordPress. You have this sentence where it says, a storage service and it says, I&#8217;m going to run the server for you to get the bootstrap going, my treat. That was the bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:14] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> That raised the alarms, right? It should raise the alarms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Exactly. It made me think Twitter in a way, it made me think there&#8217;s this central bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:21] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> No, it&#8217;s not, because I have the answer that Twitter never had, which is I&#8217;m giving you all the code you need to run your own server. I&#8217;m giving that to you. I&#8217;m not making you write it. In Twitter you can&#8217;t even write it. If I wrote a server that did what Twitter&#8217;s server does, that&#8217;s great, but it wouldn&#8217;t be part of Twitter. It wouldn&#8217;t be available to everyone. The availability here is the same availability as RSS. So can I subscribe to your RSS feed, even if your thing is on another server? Of course.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s all you need to know. Ultimately, that&#8217;s all you&#8217;re going to need is to be able to. It&#8217;s just RSS, that&#8217;s all it is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s RSS all the way down.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:03] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> But let me just say this, is that&#8217;s also a strength of the WordPress community, the skepticism. You&#8217;re always, you guys are always watching for the lock in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;ve spent trying to encourage the world that you need to own your own data, or at least have. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:17] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Unfortunately the world, on the whole, didn&#8217;t listen, so we keep banging that gong.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:24] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Yes. But let me point out that you are the distillation of the people. You&#8217;re the group of people who care deeply about that stuff. So keep it up because, and that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m ready to answer those questions because, and here&#8217;s the punchline. Even though I&#8217;m not part of your community, we share that religion.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, that&#8217;s nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:43] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Why do we share the religion? Because it&#8217;s the web. Because that&#8217;s what the web taught us. Maybe we believed, maybe we were very naive in the nineties and the early two thousands. We were, we&#8217;re not naive anymore. I think the last, the very last sentence in the Think Different, go read that, right now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:53:02] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> They lied to the users all the time, over and over. No, I don&#8217;t object to you making money, but I&#8217;m putting it out there. You can compete with me. I want you to compete with me, as long as you don&#8217;t try to cut off the interop. I&#8217;m not naive. Believe me, I expect that will happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:53:16] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> That&#8217;s just all the credentials I need to be in your community, right? Not all the credentials. I don&#8217;t know half the stuff any of you guys know about the how to do. I don&#8217;t do PHP for example. I don&#8217;t know how to set up a WordPress server. I have somebody that helps me with that. So I&#8217;m not qualified to be a member of the WordPress community, but that&#8217;s the beauty of the web. I don&#8217;t have to be to connect with that community, because that&#8217;s what the web gives. And that&#8217;s pretty awesome, don&#8217;t you think? And the other thing is that makes it even more awesome is that all the other people like me will be able to do it too. Why? Because in the end they played straight with you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Depending on when this podcast is released, it may well be that you&#8217;ve done your presentation. If that is in fact the case, then I will make sure to link to the WordPress TV, the video that will have been captured. I&#8217;ll link that into this post. But also I&#8217;ll link to the Textcasting document and, also the Think Different About WordPress document. And encourage you, if you&#8217;ve got any interesting kind of, I&#8217;m gonna say rewinding the clock and returning the world to a different era where the blue sky was there, and there was less cloud, than go and explore those different bits and pieces.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I will definitely be coming back to you, Dave Winer, to figure out exactly how it&#8217;s gone and maybe call it months or something like that. And we&#8217;ll see where you&#8217;ve got with the WordPress community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:40] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> If we&#8217;re still here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. But we will, we&#8217;ll leave it there. And, I will say thank you for chatting to me today about this really important subject. Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:48] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Thank you much, it was great. Have a good day.</p>\n</div></details>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/scripting.com\">Dave Winer.</a> </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave’s journey into the heart of Silicon Valley began in the early 1980s, when he left Wisconsin and moved to California with two products and a dream: to achieve fame and fortune in the world of technology. Driven by a deep belief that real communication involves people truly connecting, he set out to make his mark.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Early on, he found himself in a memorable meeting with Steve Jobs, both were in their early 20s, bursting with ambition and self-assurance. Their encounter was fiery and competitive, yet it marked the start of Dave’s lifelong mission to wire the world together, not just with technology, but by bringing people closer through it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’ve ever subscribed to a blog, listened to a podcast, or shared your thoughts online, chances are you’ve benefitted from Dave’s pioneering work, he’s the developer behind influential technologies like RSS, and a long-time advocate for open, user-owned, publishing platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He describes himself as someone who wrote the first versions of lots of software, wants to work with everyone, still has big ideas, he likes things to be open from top to bottom, and doesn&#8217;t care for greedy people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today we’re talking about the vision, history, and future of the open web. Dave reminisces about the origins of today’s internet, the early days when idealism and collaboration were at the web’s core. He shares stories from his career, the rise and fall of early software startups, and how the initial spirit of community slowly gave way to the “walled gardens” of big tech giants like Facebook, Google, and Twitter.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the conversation isn’t just about nostalgia, it’s a call to action for reclaiming the internet’s potential. Dave explains what went wrong with the evolution of the social web, why he thinks blogging tech like RSS just needed “more love”, and how the influx of money and centralisation stifled the creativity and interoperability the web was built for.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You’ll also get to hear about Dave’s latest efforts to reignite those original web ideals, he reveals the thinking behind Wordland, a minimalist and powerful writing tool for WordPress users that puts freedom, portability, and open protocols front and centre.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave also lays out his “Textcasting” manifesto, challenging platforms to truly support writers with features like unlimited length, markdown support, and true ownership of content, without the need for permission or platform lock-in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave truly is a pioneer of the internet, and is certainly not finished yet. He’s putting WordPress at the centre of many of his future endeavours. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re passionate about owning your content, deeply curious about web history, or looking for inspiration on how technology can empower rather than control, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MORE_(application)\">Dave&#8217;s MORE product</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.eff.org/\">EFF</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://home.cern/science/computing/birth-web\">The birth of the Web</a> &#8211; CERN</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http://scripting.com/\">scripting.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub\">ActivityPub</a> on Wikipedia</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse\">Fediverse</a> on Wikipedia</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave&#8217;s <a href=\"https://textcasting.org/\">textcasting.org</a> website</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http://scripting.com/2025/08/28/140604.html\">Think Different about WordPress</a> post on scripting.com</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://this.how/wordland/\">About Wordland</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Access to <a href=\"https://wordland.social/\">Wordland</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Access to<a href=\"https://feedland.org/\"> Feedland</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://canada.wordcamp.org/2025/session/wordpress-and-the-open-social-web/\">WordPress and the open social web</a>, Dave&#8217;s presentation at WordCamp Canada 2025</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://daveverse.org/\">Daveverse</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:42;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:84:\"Open Channels FM: Discovering the Future of AI and Customer Success at CloudFest USA\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=110347\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:91:\"https://openchannels.fm/discovering-the-future-of-ai-and-customer-success-at-cloudfest-usa/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:219:\"In this episode, Adam talks with Jess Frick and Jeff Paul about their panels at CloudFest USA 2025. They discuss customer success in WordPress hosting, AI integrations, and the event\'s highlights, offering fun insights.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 13:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:43;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:71:\"Open Channels FM: 5 Real-World Ways to Build Consistent Creation Habits\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109528\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:78:\"https://openchannels.fm/5-real-world-ways-to-build-consistent-creation-habits/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:131:\"To build a daily creative habit, just hit record and embrace the chaos. 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This post does the best summary: <a href=\"https://joel.drapper.me/p/rubygems-takeover/\">Shopify, pulling strings at Ruby Central, forces Bundler and RubyGems takeover</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I will only add that Automattic attempted to sponsor RailsConf and have a booth for our open web apps, such as Pocket Casts, Day One, and Beeper, which we thought would be relevant to the open source and open web audience there; however, we were denied. We&#8217;ve <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/\">sponsored other </a><span style=\"margin: 0px; padding: 0px;\"><a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/\" target=\"_blank\">open-source events like DrupalCon before</a> and did so in a tasteful way that wasn&#8217;t in conflict with the organization&#8217;s mission</span>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 00:31:32 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:45;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:55:\"Open Channels FM: Why Open Source Matters in Podcasting\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=108690\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:62:\"https://openchannels.fm/why-open-source-matters-in-podcasting/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:156:\"Podcasters face limitations with closed platforms. But there are those who do advocate for tools  to boost data ownership and customization in the industry.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 23 Sep 2025 12:29:21 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:46;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:74:\"Open Channels FM: Exploring WordPress, Textcasting, and Open Web Standards\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=110341\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:79:\"https://openchannels.fm/exploring-wordpress-textcasting-and-open-web-standards/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:256:\"In this episode of Fediverse Flows, Matthias Pfefferle chats with Dave Winer about the open web\'s evolution, emphasizing interoperability, linking, and decentralized publishing through WordPress, while discussing challenges faced by contemporary platforms.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 23 Sep 2025 09:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:47;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"Matt: Post-Earthquake Tea Grit\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149908\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:26:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/tea/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1551:\"<p>The 4.7 earthquake definitely disturbed my sleep last night, so it&#8217;s nice to have a <a href=\"https://cuzenmatcha.com/\">Cuzen Matcha</a> shot and some <a href=\"https://www.harney.com/products/paris-tea\">Harney &amp; Sons Paris tea</a> to wake up and get me through the day.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image alignwide size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149909\" height=\"453\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/IMG_0007-1024x768.jpeg?resize=604%2C453&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Speaking of spilling tea, I had a great conversation with <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/joubin-mirzadegan-66186854/\">Joubin Mirzadegan</a> of the storied VC firm <a href=\"https://www.kleinerperkins.com/\">Kleiner Perkins</a> where we got to chat about the hero&#8217;s journey of entrepreneurship, my earliest &#8220;Hot Nacho&#8221; WordPress scandal and the context of current battles, 996 work, jazz clubs in San Francisco, and more. Kleiner never invested in Automattic (I don&#8217;t think we ever pitched) but I have always had huge respect for John Doerr, Brook Byers, Bing Gordon, Mary Meeker, Ilya Fushman, and Mamoon Hamid, so many of the people at KPCB.  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